Pre-Nicene christians and the trinity

by joey jojo 28 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • joey jojo
    joey jojo

    This is just a quick summary that might be useful regarding the threads about the trinity currently on the board.

    In 325 ce, the Nicene council was called by Constantine to settle schisms within the christian church. The argument about the nature of Jesus in relation to God was one of the big problems that needed resolution. At first, Constantine told the 2 main players, Alexander and Arius to sort it out between themselves, as he, Constantine didnt see it as overly important. However, it wasnt settled and was starting to cause political problems for Constantine within his empire.

    From the start, there were a lot of people on each side of the debate, some believing Jesus was like God and didnt have a beginning and the other side, believing he was created by God. This wasnt a case of a small, fringe group with a crazy idea, going against the established belief, it had been a debated topic for a long time, over a large part of the Roman Empire.

    The eventual outcome of the 300 people at the council is that the consensus agreed with Alexander and the trinity doctine was made the standard to be followed. Anyone that didnt agree to the new belief was threatened with ex-communication and exile, which is what happened to Arius.

    The question is, where is God in all this decision making? There is no suggestion that any of the opposing camps were ungodly, or werent living their lives as Christians. This was a purely political decision, voted on by men, under the threat of exile and overseen by the Emperor to maintain control of the state religion. The nature of Jesus was a legitimate question then and it is now, which is why it cant be explained easily as either side has pro's and con's to their argument. And really, who gets to dictate the answer? An Emperor that lived around 2000 years ago and has the power to stop thought and debate to this day?

    This next part is pure speculation. Only bits and pieces of the NT have been discovered from after 100 ce. There is nothing from the 1st century and the first complete bible didnt arrive until the early 4th century at best. Thats almost 400 after Jesus died. 400 years is a long time. Perhaps, once the offical doctrines had been adopted from 325 onwards, any surviving early manuscritps were destroyed by the early church to remove as many opposing ideas as possible? This also allows the new testament to be subtly altered to capture the ideas of the newly adopted doctrines. This isnt far-fetched as this is exactly what the JW's do right now, in plain sight.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    The council itself involved a narrow selection of attendees with views within the burgeoning Catholic church. These views did not include various adoptionist, docetic Christologies or most relevantly, Logos theology.

    "Logos-theology which taught a two-stage existence for the Logos: He always existed inside God but became a separate Being - a distinct Reality - when God decided to create." wiki

  • Anony Mous
    Anony Mous

    Where do you find that the teaching was wide spread and accepted? According to the historical records, it was only accepted in the Alexandrian diocese and was spreading in African provinces as well, Arian was said to teach sailors the teaching as sea shanties in a hope of spreading it. When it came to the ears of the other Bishops, they universally condemned it although Arian claimed to have many believers, of the 300+ people at the First Council of Nicaea, only 22 initially were supporters of Arian, although it is clear some only supported him for personal connection and political reasons, after months of debate he had only 3 supporters, the rest signed off on the Nicene interpretation of Christianity.

    Moreover, what Arian claimed was not the modern teaching from WTBTS that Jesus is Michael, just one of the many angels, subservient to both God and a delegated co-ruler with the “anointed ones”, he still saw Jesus as divine, connected to the God-figure which he believed to be infinite whereas Jesus was still a (part of) God, but a finite one.

    In a sense Arius did not reject the trinity, his writings seem to point that he tried to combine the scripture that support the trinity and scripture where Jesus at face value seems to reject it, by saying the trinity was created by a greater (aspect of) God and then that that character became the Father that created (begotten) Jesus but Jesus does not know this (the entire idea is rather fractious and esoteric, between partial writings that survived).

    The complete rejection and claim that the Father was not part of and greater than the Son came after Arius death, Arianism had survived in some churches and was taken up and driven in the empire by Justin the Apostate that wanted to bring back the controversy to break up the Christian Church and bring Roman paganism back to the Empire, clear to see, Justin did not succeed and the Nicene viewpoint prevailed.

  • joey jojo
    joey jojo

    Where did I say it was accepted? I used the terms widespread and debated.

  • Earnest
    Earnest
    Anony Mous : Where do you find that the teaching was wide spread and accepted?

    Wikipedia reports on this :

    Controversy over Arianism arose in the late 3rd century and persisted throughout most of the 4th century. It involved most church members—from simple believers, priests, and monks to bishops, emperors, and members of Rome's imperial family. The Roman Emperors Constantius II (337–361) and Valens (364–378) were Arians or Semi-Arians, as was the first King of Italy, Odoacer (433?–493). The Lombards were also Arians or Semi-Arians until the 7th century, the ruling elite of Visigothic Spain was Arian until 589, many Goths adopted Arian beliefs upon their conversion to Christianity, the Vandals actively spread Arianism in North Africa, the antipopes Felix II and Ursinus were Arian, and Pope Liberius was forced to sign the Arian Creed of Sirmium of 357 although the letter says he willingly agreed with Arianism. Such a deep controversy within the early Church during this period of its development could not have materialized without significant historical influences providing a basis for the Arian doctrines.

    Jerome wrote The Dialogue Against the Luciferians about 379 and there he said (chapter 19):

    [Bishop] Valens and [Bishop] Ursacius and others associated with them [i.e. Arians] in their wickedness, eminent Christian bishops of course, began to wave their palms, and to say they had not denied that He was a creature, but that He was like other creatures. At that moment the term Usia was abolished: the Nicene Faith stood condemned by acclamation. The whole world groaned, and was astonished to find itself Arian.
  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    What Really Happened at Nicea?

    The role of Constantine in the Nicene creed

    The Council of Nicaea (325 CE) did not “create” the doctrine of the Trinity. The council primarily addressed the Arian controversy, specifically whether Jesus was of the same essence (homoousios) as the Father or a created being. The Trinity as a concept—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit sharing one divine essence—was already a well-established belief in early Christianity before Nicaea, as seen in the writings of Church Fathers like Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, and Tertullian.

    • Ignatius of Antioch (c. 110 CE): Refers to Jesus as God multiple times, showing an early understanding of His deity (e.g., Letter to the Ephesians 7:2, 18:2).
    • Tertullian (c. 200 CE): Explicitly uses the term Trinitas to describe the relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Adversus Praxean 2).
    • Origen (c. 185–254 CE): Describes the eternal generation of the Son from the Father, reflecting a nuanced Trinitarian theology (De Principiis I.2.6).

    These early writings demonstrate that the concept of the Trinity was not invented at Nicaea but was already part of Christian theological reflection.

    Constantine did not "create" or dictate the doctrine of the Trinity. His primary concern was maintaining unity in the empire, not theological details. He called the Council of Nicaea to resolve disputes that were causing division but did not personally influence the theological outcomes. Constantine's role was that of a mediator and facilitator, not a theological arbiter.

    The assertion that the Council of Nicaea involved “a narrow selection” of attendees is misleading. While it is true that not all bishops from the Christian world were present, the council was well-attended, with over 300 bishops from diverse regions. According to Eusebius and other historical accounts, bishops from across the Roman Empire, including the East and West, participated. While certain fringe theological views (e.g., adoptionism and docetism) were not directly represented, this was because these views had already been widely condemned by the broader Christian community and were not under consideration at Nicaea.

    The council's purpose was not to explore every theological perspective but to address the Arian controversy, which directly challenged the deity of Christ and the unity of the Godhead. By focusing on Arianism, the council sought to maintain the doctrinal integrity of the Church. Furthermore, the bishops present at Nicaea were deeply committed Christians, many of whom had endured persecution for their faith under prior emperors. The council's decision was not a "political imposition" but a theological consensus among the majority of bishops, affirming the deity of Christ as consistent with apostolic teaching.

    While theological debates existed in the early Church, this does not mean the Trinity was “a late invention”. The debates often centered on how best to articulate the relationship between the Father and the Son, not whether Jesus was divine. For example the Apostles and their immediate followers affirmed Jesus' deity, as seen in New Testament texts (e.g., John 1:1, Philippians 2:6–11, Colossians 1:15–20) and early creeds like the Old Roman Symbol. Arius' position—that the Son was a created being and not co-eternal with the Father—was a deviation from the mainstream Christian understanding, which is why it was condemned.

    The description of Logos theology as teaching a "two-stage existence" is a misunderstanding of the theological context. Logos theology, rooted in the writings of early Church Fathers like Justin Martyr, Origen, and later Athanasius, emphasized the eternal pre-existence of the Logos (Word) as co-equal with God the Father. The Logos was not "created" at the time of creation but was eternally begotten of the Father.

    This concept is distinct from the Arian interpretation, which asserted that the Logos was a created being and thus subordinate to the Father. The Nicene Creed explicitly rejected the Arian view, affirming that the Son is "begotten, not made, of the same essence (homoousios) as the Father."

    The claim that Logos theology was localized to Alexandria and a few African provinces is historically inaccurate. Logos theology was a central feature of early Christian thought, influencing not only Alexandrian theologians but also those in Asia Minor, Rome, and elsewhere. For example, Irenaeus of Lyons and Tertullian in Carthage also reflected elements of Logos theology in their writings.

    Arianism influenced many parts of the Christian world, including the Roman Empire, Visigothic Spain, and North Africa. The assertion that "the whole world groaned and was astonished to find itself Arian" (Jerome) highlights the extent to which Arianism gained traction, particularly among ruling elites and some ecclesiastical leaders. However, this does not imply that Arianism was the dominant theological position within the Church; rather, it underscores the controversy and political struggles of the time. Jerome's statement that "the whole world groaned and was astonished to find itself Arian" reflects the political and ecclesiastical struggles of his time. It does not imply that Arianism represented the authentic teaching of the Church but rather that it had gained significant influence due to imperial support and internal conflicts. Ultimately, the Nicene Creed prevailed as the definitive expression of orthodox Christian belief, reaffirming the Church's commitment to the biblical witness of Christ's deity and the unity of the Godhead.

    The claim that Arius did not reject the Trinity is a misunderstanding. While Arius's Christology acknowledged some form of divinity in Christ, it fundamentally denied the co-equality and co-eternity of the Son with the Father. This denial is incompatible with orthodox Trinitarianism. Arius's teaching that the Son was a created being—albeit the highest of all created beings—was the central point of contention at Nicaea.

    Furthermore, Arius's theology diverges significantly from modern Jehovah's Witness theology, which identifies Jesus as Michael the Archangel and denies his deity altogether. This demonstrates that Arianism, while influential, is not the same as later non-Trinitarian movements.

    You claim that the Church may have destroyed early manuscripts to remove opposing ideas and subtly altered the New Testament to align with Nicene doctrines. This conspiracy theory lacks historical evidence and contradicts the facts about the transmission of the New Testament. We have over 5,800 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament, many predating Nicaea. These include papyri such as P52 (John’s Gospel, early 2nd century), which show remarkable consistency with later copies. Modern scholars, including those critical of Christianity (e.g., Bart Ehrman), affirm that the New Testament text is well-preserved and that no significant doctrinal changes were introduced through textual corruption. Early heretical writings, like those of the Gnostics and Arians, were not systematically destroyed. We know of these views because the early Church preserved writings refuting them.

    While the term Trinity does not appear in the Bible, the concept is clearly present in the New Testament:

    • Matthew 28:19: Jesus commands baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, presenting them as coequal.
    • John 1:1: "The Word was with God, and the Word was God," affirming the divine nature of the Son.
    • 2 Corinthians 13:14: Paul’s benediction invokes the grace of Jesus, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, reflecting Trinitarian theology.

    These passages align with the Trinity doctrine, which systematizes biblical truths rather than imposing foreign ideas.

    The claim that no 1st-century Christian, including Paul, believed in the Trinity misunderstands the development of Christian doctrine. The Trinity as a fully articulated doctrine emerged through theological reflection on the biblical witness, not as a sudden invention. The New Testament contains numerous affirmations of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as sharing divine attributes (e.g., Matthew 28:19, John 1:1, 2 Corinthians 13:14). Early Christians, including Paul, affirmed the deity of Christ (Philippians 2:6-11, Colossians 1:15-20) and the Holy Spirit's divine role (Acts 5:3-4).

    The Nicene Creed formalized these beliefs into a coherent statement to combat heretical distortions, but it did not invent them. The idea of the Trinity is a synthesis of scriptural truths, not a creation of the 4th-century Church.

    So the doctrine of the Trinity was not “invented” at Nicaea but was the natural outcome of biblical reflection and theological articulation. The early Church’s commitment to Jesus’ deity and the unity of God is evident in both Scripture and pre-Nicene writings. The widespread controversy over Arianism demonstrates the need for such councils to safeguard orthodoxy. Historical and theological evidence supports the conclusion that the Trinity is a biblically grounded doctrine, affirmed by the early Church and essential to Christian faith. Claims of political imposition or suppression of manuscripts are unfounded conspiracy theories that do not align with historical evidence. Instead, the Trinity doctrine faithfully expresses the biblical witness to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

    Some resources for you:

  • Earnest
    Earnest

    aqwsed12345 : Constantine's role was that of a mediator and facilitator, not a theological arbiter.

    aqwsed12345 : Claims of political imposition or suppression of manuscripts are unfounded conspiracy theories that do not align with historical evidence.

    Constantine's Edict Against the Arians :

    In addition, if any writing composed by Arius should be found, it should be handed over to the flames, so that not only will the wickedness of his teaching be obliterated, but nothing will be left even to remind anyone of him. And I hereby make a public order, that if someone should be discovered to have hidden a writing composed by Arius, and not to have immediately brought it forward and destroyed it by fire, his penalty shall be death. As soon as he is discovered in this offence, he shall be submitted for capital punishment. ..
  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat


    Emperor Constantine and the Council of Nicaea. The burning of Arian books is illustrated above. Drawing on vellum. From MS CLXV, Biblioteca Capitolare, Vercelli, a compendium of canon law produced in northern Italy ca. 825.


  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    Constantine’s edict to burn Arian writings does not imply that the Nicene Creed or the doctrine of the Trinity was politically motivated or “invented” by Constantine. This decree must be understood in the historical context of Constantine's effort to maintain unity in the Church and the Empire. Arianism, by denying the full divinity of Christ, introduced significant division within the Christian community. Constantine’s decision to suppress Arian writings reflects his desire to quell what he saw as a source of discord, not a theological imposition.

    The decree demonstrates Constantine’s role as a political unifier, not as a theological innovator. The condemnation of heretical writings, such as Arian documents, was consistent with the Church’s established practice of preserving orthodoxy and combating doctrinal error, long before Constantine’s time.

    While Constantine convened and presided over the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD, his role was that of a mediator rather than a theological decision-maker. The theological content of the Nicene Creed, including the term homoousios ("of the same substance"), was debated and determined by the bishops present at the council. Historical records, such as those of Eusebius of Caesarea and Athanasius of Alexandria, affirm that Constantine did not dictate theological outcomes but deferred to the expertise of the bishops.

    Constantine’s advocacy for homoousios likely stemmed from the influence of his advisor, Bishop Hosius of Cordova, and was not a result of personal theological insight. Moreover, Constantine's support of the Nicene position fluctuated; he later showed leniency toward Arianism, suggesting that his actions were driven more by political expediency than theological conviction.

    The claim that Constantine manipulated or destroyed early biblical manuscripts to align with Nicene theology is baseless. Thousands of New Testament manuscripts, including papyri predating Constantine (e.g., P52, P46), demonstrate remarkable consistency in affirming the deity of Christ. Early textual evidence, such as John 1:1 and Philippians 2:6-11, supports the Nicene understanding of Christ’s divinity. Scholars like Bart Ehrman, while critical of certain aspects of Christianity, affirm the reliability of the New Testament text.

    Furthermore, writings refuting Arianism and other heresies, such as those of Athanasius, preserve extensive quotations of Arian arguments, indicating that opposing views were not systematically erased but engaged and refuted.

    While Constantine’s decree against Arian writings might appear harsh, it reflects the standards of the time for addressing heresy, not an "invention" of doctrine. Heretical texts, such as Gnostic and Arian writings, were condemned because they contradicted the apostolic faith and sowed confusion. This practice aligns with the Church’s role in safeguarding orthodoxy, as seen in other periods, including the suppression of Montanism and Donatism.

    So Constantine's edict to burn Arian writings was not an isolated event in Church history, nor was it an attempt to impose an "invented" theology. As mentioned earlier, it reflected Constantine's desire to maintain unity within the Church and, by extension, his empire. The Nicene Council’s condemnation of Arianism as heresy, and the subsequent suppression of Arian texts, were consistent with the Church’s long-established practices of combating what it considered doctrinal errors.

    The Arian party, however, did not remain a powerless or purely victimized group. After Constantine’s death in 337 AD, his successors, particularly Constantius II, who leaned toward Arianism, supported the suppression of Nicene Christians. Figures such as Athanasius of Alexandria were exiled multiple times under Arian-influenced imperial policies. This demonstrates that the political alignment with theological positions was fluid and subject to change depending on the ruler. Neither Arians nor Nicene Christians were immune from persecution when they found themselves on the losing side of imperial favor.

    The persecution of Athanasius is a prime example of how the pendulum swung against the Nicene position in the mid-fourth century. Athanasius, one of the staunchest defenders of Nicene orthodoxy, was exiled five times and faced relentless opposition from Arian bishops and emperors. During these periods, Nicene Christians endured significant hardships, with many bishops removed from their positions and exiled. This underscores the reality that the conflict was not one-sided but rather a series of struggles for dominance within the Church.

    The Nicene-Arian conflict illustrates the close entanglement of theology and imperial politics in late antiquity. While modern sensibilities about religious freedom might criticize Constantine’s edict, it must be understood within the context of the time. The Roman Empire lacked the concept of religious pluralism as we understand it today. The prevailing view was that theological unity was essential for political and social stability. The suppression of heretical texts, whether by Nicene or Arian supporters, was seen as a necessary measure to protect the unity of the Church and the Empire.

    It is also important to emphasize that the Nicene Creed and the doctrine of the Trinity were not political fabrications but theological conclusions rooted in Scripture and the early Church’s reflection on Christ’s identity. The Nicene Creed was developed through rigorous theological debate among bishops who sought to articulate the apostolic faith. The term "homoousios" ("of the same substance") was not an "imposition" by Constantine but a term debated and adopted by the council to affirm the full divinity of Christ as consistent with Scripture.

    Arians themselves relied on imperial power when it served their purposes, further demonstrating that theological disputes were not purely about doctrine but were often intertwined with political strategies.

    To judge these events by the standards of modern religious freedom is to project anachronistic concepts onto a very different cultural and historical context. The fourth century did not operate with the ideals of individual conscience and religious pluralism that emerged much later. Instead, unity in belief was considered integral to the stability of society, and heresy was seen not merely as a religious error but as a threat to public order.

    While Constantine’s decree to burn Arian books may appear draconian to modern observers, it was consistent with the norms of the time. The Nicene Creed and the doctrine of the Trinity were not inventions of Constantine but theological developments grounded in Scripture and affirmed through rigorous debate. Similarly, the Arian party, when politically empowered, acted no less harshly against its opponents. These historical dynamics highlight the complexities of early Church politics and theology, which cannot be simplistically reduced to accusations of fabrication or coercion.

    https://www.fourthcentury.com

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    Early Christian leaders wrote thousands of pages in letters to one another combatting heretics. Most of these works survive. If you look at the writings of first disciples that the apostles trained and their disciples, it is easy to figure out.

    Like this:

    Nine Early Church Fathers Who Taught Jesus Is God

    Anyone who ignores the clear evidence in the bible, the early christian leaders writings, and common sense is welcome to their delusion.

    If Jesus wasn't God, how did he resurrect himself from the dead like he predicted? If you say, oh, he didn't God resurrected him, the the bible wrong and Jesus is a liar and the greates con artist who ever lived.

    In John 10:17–18 Jesus says something that no mere mortal could ever say: “I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again.”

    No one else in the history of the world has ever had the authority both to lay down his life and to raise it up again.

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