Actually I think these may be two separate but similar incidents. Has the first dropped out? Were JWs implicated in both or just one? In any case it’s very difficult to find anything about the JW angle online now, althogh it was a mainstream story at the time. What was going on?
slimboyfat
JoinedPosts by slimboyfat
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22
Memory hole, international conspiracy, and the JW international network
by slimboyfat incan anyone else who was around 15 to 20 years ago remember an odd story about jw missionaries being stopped at the swiss/italian border with american bonds worth billions of dollars in their possession?
because i can find little to no information about it anywhere online, yet at the time i am sure i recall it being reported by different mainstream news sources, including the bbc.
why do some news stories seem to disappear from the internet altogether?
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Memory hole, international conspiracy, and the JW international network
by slimboyfat incan anyone else who was around 15 to 20 years ago remember an odd story about jw missionaries being stopped at the swiss/italian border with american bonds worth billions of dollars in their possession?
because i can find little to no information about it anywhere online, yet at the time i am sure i recall it being reported by different mainstream news sources, including the bbc.
why do some news stories seem to disappear from the internet altogether?
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slimboyfat
This was a thread from the time. It says Philippine nationals rather than Japanese?
https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/244367/on-jw-org-any-update-on-philipine-jehovahs-witnesses-116-billion-counterfeit-bonds
And my own earlier thread from the time.
https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/211442/what-would-watchtower-society-do-116-billion
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Memory hole, international conspiracy, and the JW international network
by slimboyfat incan anyone else who was around 15 to 20 years ago remember an odd story about jw missionaries being stopped at the swiss/italian border with american bonds worth billions of dollars in their possession?
because i can find little to no information about it anywhere online, yet at the time i am sure i recall it being reported by different mainstream news sources, including the bbc.
why do some news stories seem to disappear from the internet altogether?
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slimboyfat
Yeah, that’s what I mean. It was widely reported at the time that the two Japanese nationals were JW missionaries, but there’s nothing about JWs at all now on the Wikipedia page or the news links.
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Memory hole, international conspiracy, and the JW international network
by slimboyfat incan anyone else who was around 15 to 20 years ago remember an odd story about jw missionaries being stopped at the swiss/italian border with american bonds worth billions of dollars in their possession?
because i can find little to no information about it anywhere online, yet at the time i am sure i recall it being reported by different mainstream news sources, including the bbc.
why do some news stories seem to disappear from the internet altogether?
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slimboyfat
Can anyone else who was around 15 to 20 years ago remember an odd story about JW missionaries being stopped at the Swiss/Italian border with American bonds worth billions of dollars in their possession? Because I can find little to no information about it anywhere online, yet at the time I am sure I recall it being reported by different mainstream news sources, including the BBC.
Why do some news stories seem to disappear from the internet altogether? Dwelling on it overly may be enough to turn you into some kind of a “conspiracy theorist”!
In terms of American organisations with a worldwide reach, there can be few that have the extent and reach that the Watchtower organisation does. Who else has outposts in Mongolia, St Helena, Greenland, St Kitts, Namibia, you name it? Plus the countries that aren’t named. Say you wanted to piggy back an organisation for information gathering, wouldn’t it be a good choice?
Watchtower itself has talked about being infiltrated by Russian agents in the Soviet Union and by Stasi in East Germany. It is inconceivable that western countries have done the same? Would Watchtower necessarily know it, and would they publicise it if they found out?
We know that various western countries use organisations for information gathering such as the Amdocs telecommunications company, and all the others implicated in the Snowdon leaks, to effect. We also know that the US state department takes a close interest in the spread of US religions including JWs under the guise of “freedom of religion” reports.
What really went on at the Swiss/Italian border and why can’t I find out anything about it? Was it someone impersonating a JW? Or was it someone pretending to be a JW over a longer term? And what were they up to? Was it a one off incident or the tip of an iceberg?
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new book
by vienne inyou may be interested in this research: https://truthhistory.blogspot.com/2024/12/grave-matters.html.
this is a brief history of the watch tower cemetery where russell is buried.
i read it this morning.
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slimboyfat
Heads up, missing out on this book would be a grave mistake. 😉
I wonder how come the listing page gives 2021 as the publication date when it’s a new book. 🤔
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follower of Eric Wilson, abusive to single women covered by paying sums of money to support Beroean Pickets tourism trips.
by buzkid insusanne eigenheer is an ex-jw and suffered religious abuse in eric wilson's group.
her personal statement and experiences within the beroean pickets study groups was one of betrayal where she was taken advantage of financially.
in one text conversation, wendy wiens disfellowshiped susanne and demanded an apology from her.
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slimboyfat
others have been harmed in his group, to the point of suicide.
Really? WTH is going on? This guy was supposed to be a friend of James Penton too?
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Is Jesus the Creator?
by Sea Breeze inthat's what the word says.
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colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..
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slimboyfat
In explaining why John’s gospel presents Thomas calling Jesus “my Lord and my God” in John 20.28, the scholar Adela Yarbro Collins interprets it within a context in which Roman emperors were given titles such as Lord, Son of God, God, and Saviour, and the combined title “Lord and God” in particular. By applying all those titles to Jesus, the author of the gospel of John was asserting that Jesus is equal and surpasses any of the claims that could be made for Caesar. Couldn’t this inscription be saying something similar? The gospel of John, in common with the rest of the NT, also clearly shows that Jesus is distinguished from God and is subordinate to him - John 14.28, 17.3, 20.17, and many other passages. Being greater than Caesar clearly does not necessitate being the one true God.
Whatever the phrase does mean, its meaning needs to be found in its own setting, not in future understanding about the Trinity that hadn’t even been developed yet. Say we found an early modern text that used the phrase “moon landing”. It might be a perplexing phrase, but whatever its real meaning is, it needs to be sought and found in the early modern context, not 1969.
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Is Jesus the Creator?
by Sea Breeze inthat's what the word says.
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colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..
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slimboyfat
I don’t understand why this inscription is thought to be significant for early Christology even if it did call Jesus “god”. Jesus was certainly called “god” in early Christianity, this is agreed by all scholars and by JWs. Key verses where this is certain in early Christianity include Isaiah 9.6, John 1.1, and John 20.28, and Hebrews 1.8 is likely. Far less likely are Romans 9.5 and a few others, but not impossible. Crucially, the angels were also called gods in this period, as were some historic figures such as Moses. Moses was called a god already in the Torah, in his role representing Jehovah in Exodus 4.16 and 7.1, and this sense is also crucial for understanding the sense in which Jesus was viewed as god. Justin Martyr in the second century used the titles “god” and “angel” for Jesus side by side, and Origen in the third century described Jesus as a “second god”, and characterised him as subordinate to God. The issue is not whether Jesus was called god, the issue is what that means. In the context of scripture it means that he is a mighty spirit creature and that he represents Jehovah as his chief agent. This is what the Bible teaches Jesus’ role is. What is also very clear is that Jesus refers to God as his God throughout scripture (John 17.3, 20.17, Revelation 3.12). It was not until later centuries that Jesus’ identity was confused with God himself and his representative role was distorted and misrepresented, culminating in the church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries, when the original meaning of Jesus as god was eclipsed.
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408
Is Jesus the Creator?
by Sea Breeze inthat's what the word says.
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colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..
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slimboyfat
The straightforward reading of Colossians 1:15–20 is that Jesus is the firstborn of creation who in turn was God’s agent in creating the universe. This theme of God’s Word/Wisdom/firstborn being used by God to create everything is familiar from Jewish texts such as Proverbs, Wisdom, and the works of Philo.
Scholar Maurice Casey explains it this way:
Similar remarks may be made about Colossians 1.15-20. So much of it has static parallels from Jewish speculation about Wisdom that we must infer an author who felt that what had previously been believed of Wisdom was true of Jesus. It begins with Jesus' pre-existence and role in creation: "who is an image of the invisible God, firstbom of all creation, for through him was created everything in heaven and on earth." This description must mean that Jesus, rather than Wisdom, or as Wisdom, was the first created being (of Prov 8.22f; Philo, Qu in Gen., IV, 97). This was written centuries before Arius, when no-one believed that Jesus was the second person of the Trinity. The assertions that he was created before the world and participated in its creation were a significant advance on previous thought. They could not have been made unless it was supposed that Jesus was pre-existent, as Wisdom was perceived to have existed before the creation of the universe that she was believed to have created. Colossians 1.16-17 expands this midrashically, using Proverbs 8.22-29, and moving back from Proverbs 8.22 to Genesis 1.1.42.
Maurice Casey, From Jewish Prophet to Gentile God: The Origins and Development of New Testament Christology (1991), page 115.
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Did Tony Morris Get Sideways with His Bros.?
by Sea Breeze ininteresting video connects the dots.
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3ff1ibybfe4&t=205s&pp=2ahnazacaq%3d%3d.
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slimboyfat
Which is not to say that WT might not try to effect a harder line on shunning through informal channels and verbal communications to elders. They may well try to do that, but they may find they have limited success readjusting the behaviour of JWs in general with that strategy, because, as many see it, the wording of the Watchtower has granted them permission to stop shunning if they wish.