Posts by slimboyfat

407

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

slimboyfat

he recognizes the Nicene Creed as a defense of the Church’s understanding of Christ’s divine nature against a theological innovation.

That’s about as near to the exact opposite of what Hart said as you could possibly get. Hart’s whole point is that Arius represented the traditional view and Nicaea was the innovation. More than that, he says that this fact is well known among scholars even if it may be surprising to others. (The comments of many other scholars on the subject bear this out - Paula Fredricksen, EP Sanders, Geza Vermes, Adela Yarbro Collins, to mention a few.) You can waste as many words trying to get Hart to the say the opposite as you like but it doesn’t change what he says. It’s a pointless exercise.

407

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

slimboyfat

acqwsed you wrote:

While Hart acknowledges diversity in early Christian theology, he does not claim that Arius more faithfully represented the apostolic faith.

This is just wrong. It is difficult to maintain belief in your good faith when you so blatantly distort a source we have both listened to. Hart said that:

“scholars have known this, I mean known that Arius was not some strange, curious anomaly, that he was simply an extreme expression of what was regarded by many as the orthodoxy of centuries, and there is a reason why after the Arian controversy, the controversy continued with the Eunomians and others, you know, bishops and priests still committed to this older view that they thought was the correct view. It was the Nicene party that was proposing a new grammar, you know, even a new word, homoousios, consubstantial, it’s not in scripture, and it wasn’t in previous Christian usage.” (Around 50 minutes into video)

How can you be trusted when you claim Hart meant the opposite of what he said in a source that we both have access to?

407

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

slimboyfat

Hart says that Arius represented the traditional view and that Nicene theology was the innovation. He couldn’t be clearer about that. For Hart it apparently doesn’t matter that the early Christians believed in a subordinate Christ rather than the Trintiy of equals because he is prepared to believe in a development of theology. For JWs, of course, what the earliest Christians believed is determinative.

407

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

slimboyfat

Yes Jesus is distinguished from God (ho theos) in John 1.1 as a god (theos), described as “the firstborn of all creation” in Col 1.15, and is exalted in Phil 2.5–11 “to the glory of God the Father”. After Nicaea these verses had to be explained as not contradicting the novel doctrine of the Trinity, but earlier Christians took these and other passages at face value as meaning what they said.

407

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

slimboyfat

Yes, according to David Bentley Hart, and other scholars of the period, the earliest Christians viewed Jesus as subordinate to God, the highest angel. Arius reflected this early tradition better than the Nicene faction who introduced its Trinitarian theology as a later innovation. Hart points out that you can see the change if you read Eusebius before and after the council of Nicaea.

407

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

slimboyfat

The earliest Christology is angel Christology. This fell away in the fourth century after Nicaea, but the earliest Christians conceived of Jesus as the highest being in service of God, the unique Son. See scholar David Bentley Hart explain this at the 48 minutes mark in this interview

https://youtu.be/NEAgVvW9i10?si=eQzEn7Jlby7-daF6

14

The Greeks had a word for it, but the Watchtower didn't

by Nathan Natas in

i recall as though it was only 60 years ago, sitting in the kingdom hall on those horrible chairs, learning of the four forms of love: agape, philia, storge and eros.. the watchtower never mentioned pragma.. pragma: this is a committed, compassionate love that often grows as two partners continue to cherish and care for each other.

this type of love is associated with being together for a long time.

in some cases, the passion of eros can grow into pragma over time, this forging a lasting bond.. i think i know why; the watchtower isn't into committed, compassionate, cherishing and caring, are they?.

slimboyfat

Is it used in this sense anywhere in the NT? But then, neither does Eros?

407

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

slimboyfat

According to who? Margaret Barker, the Mormons, and few besides.

The most quoted OT verse in the entire NT is Psalm 110.1 in which YHWH is explicitly distinguished from and superior to the messianic Lord.

88

Annual Report

by St George of England in

the latest report is now available for download on our favourite website!.

george.

slimboyfat

Yes definitely. I’m still reeling from the fact that people don’t have a physical Bible and don’t bother looking up the scriptures any more. It used to be at the convention that you’d hear the rustle of thousands of pages as everybody located the scripture the speaker was reading. Now, silence.

407

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

slimboyfat

Many still held that Yahweh was the God/son assigned to Israel by the Most High and therefore a second power like the Logos.

I think this is the particular view of Margaret Barker and of Mormons. I don’t think it’s otherwise a common view in scholarship.