The reason 1 Tim 2.5 shows Jesus is not God is because it says there is “one God” and that Jesus is the mediator for that “one God” and humans. In any normal understanding of language, the world and anything, this means that Jesus, whoever he is, is someone other than the “one God”, and the humans he is mediator for. If I say that Jack took a message between Toby and Ryan we know next to nothing about Jack, but what we do know with absolute certainty is that Jack is neither Toby nor Ryan, he’s somebody else.
slimboyfat
JoinedPosts by slimboyfat
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107
The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity
by slimboyfat inrowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?
as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.
that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.
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Watchtower SlangJamaican Patois: Gods son came fe mash up the world😂
by Diogenesister in🤦♀️this 25 million different languages thing is getting ridiculous.
this link is hilarious!
they've only gone and translated into jamaican patois and boy this isn't just translation, they're literally using slang....what next?
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slimboyfat
Ah so the flag is on the cover of an outside Bible translation. That makes sense. I guess all decisions about language are “political”, you can’t get away from that. But for people who appreciate having Watchtower literature in their everyday language it is a good move to provide it. Others who don’t appreciate it don’t need to use it and can continue using English. If some people feel diminished or politically wrong footed because other people now have the freedom to make a different language choice than they would make (to use creole WT literature) then that’s a pretty self-centred attitude and I wouldn’t worry about such people.
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107
The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity
by slimboyfat inrowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?
as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.
that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.
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slimboyfat
I don’t know how any of that refutes what 1 Tim 2.5 plainly says: there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ. Jesus is therefore distinguished from the one God. This is totally incompatible with the Trinity. I know in many discussions there is merit on both sides and reasonable argument can be had. But I don’t think this is such as case. If it wasn’t for centuries of dogma, the prestige of the church, and the stigmatisation of JW theology as heretical, I don’t think the discussion would even get off the ground. The Bible tells us dozens of times that Jesus is separate from and distinguished from God. Dealing with the inventive ways Trinitarians come up with discounting each and every one is simply a waste of time.
Good video on some of the places Jesus said he wasn’t God here.
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Watchtower SlangJamaican Patois: Gods son came fe mash up the world😂
by Diogenesister in🤦♀️this 25 million different languages thing is getting ridiculous.
this link is hilarious!
they've only gone and translated into jamaican patois and boy this isn't just translation, they're literally using slang....what next?
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slimboyfat
I think this is fantastic and inclusive and I don’t see a thing wrong with it. Do other religious groups produce literature in Jamaican patois, I wonder? If not, then even more kudos to Watchtower for doing this.
Seems a bit odd to include the flag, though. Do they do this for other countries?
I wish they’d produce British English spelling versions of literature and the NWT too, but maybe that’s not a priority.
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3099
It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)
by Simon inuh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.
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slimboyfat
Mostly accurate, but initially she says his Patron account funded “things like his research, travel, and legal battles against Watchtower”. Did he ever even claim the money was used for “legal battles” or is she just adding this as fluff? Even if he somewhere claimed it, she shouldn’t be naive to repeat such an obvious falsehood. I’d be astonished if a single penny was ever spent on any such thing.
Interesting that she says she watched all his videos back in the day but she only recently found out about the scandal. I guess that there are still fans who have no idea.
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107
The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity
by slimboyfat inrowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?
as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.
that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.
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slimboyfat
Well there’s still no Trinity in the Bible but now you’ve shown a couple of complicated diagrams that totally makes it true. 🤔
On 1 Tim 2.5 you treat Godness and humanness as like two sticky substances and Jesus somehow needs to be dipped in both to be a mediator who partakes in both. In reality that’s later philosophy talking, nothing to do with what the Bible says. What the Bible says is that there is one God and one mediator between God and humans, that is the man Jesus Christ. Notice it doesn’t say the God-man Jesus, and notice it doesn’t say between divinity and humanity. It says one man between the one God and humans. Jesus is neither the one God nor is he a sinful human. He is the one perfect human who can act as the bridge or mediator between God and sinful humans. Trinitarians claim that Jesus, on the basis of a philosophical notion of essences, must be part of both sides. In reality a mediator acts “between” two parties and is not part of either, as Paul points out in Gal 3.20
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107
The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity
by slimboyfat inrowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?
as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.
that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.
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slimboyfat
Some JW teachings that’s no doubt true, Phizzy. However the view of Jesus as distinct and subordinate to God is so clear I think it’s the straightforward reading. How anyone can read passages like 1 Tim 2.5 and still conclude God is a trinity is the true mystery.
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus
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107
The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity
by slimboyfat inrowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?
as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.
that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.
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slimboyfat
I think the Bible is entirely clear that Jesus was created by God and is distinct from and subject to God. That’s what Christians believed until the fourth century. If you handed the Bible to somebody afresh without any history of dogma attached there is no way they would ever come up with a Trinitarian God of three coequal persons. It’s a peculiar artefact of the particular philosophical and political interactions of fourth century Christianity.
The Bible explicitly says that God is one. (Gal 3.20)
It explicitly says that Jesus is the firstborn of all creation. (Col 1.15)
It explicitly says that Jesus is distinct from and subject to God. (1 Cor 11.3 and dozens of other verses)
There are no verses anywhere that say God consists of three coequal and coeternal persons, nothing even close to it.
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107
The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity
by slimboyfat inrowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?
as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.
that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.
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slimboyfat
Eusebius of Caesarea argued similarly:
But the Father precedes the Son, and has preceded Him in existence, inasmuch as He alone is unbegotten. The One, perfect in Himself and first in order as Father, and the cause of the Son's existence, receives nothing towards the completeness of His Godhead from the Son: the Other, as a Son begotten of Him that caused His being, came second to Him, Whose Son He is, receiving from the Father both His Being, and the character of His Being .
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107
The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity
by slimboyfat inrowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?
as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.
that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.
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slimboyfat
Tertullian believed God always had his Reason or his Word AND that God was alone before he brought his Son into existence. He said both things and clearly believed both. It’s only if you impose a strict idea that Word=Son that there is a problem and you have to negate one or the other of Tertullian’s statements. Tertullian made a distinction between God’s Reason which he always had, and his Son which he brought into existence and thereby became a Father. Tertullian did believe that Jesus is divine in some sense, just as JWs do, even God from God, if you like. This sits alongside his view that there was a time when the Son didn’t exist and that the Son is distinct from God and subordinate to him. Tertullian is eminently clear on these points:
I am, moreover, obliged to say this, when (extolling the Monarchy at the expense of the Economy) they contend for the identity of the Father and Son and Spirit, that it is not by way of diversity that the Son differs from the Father, but by distribution: it is not by division that He is different, but by distinction; because the Father is not the same as the Son, since they differ one from the other in the mode of their being. For the Father is the entire substance, but the Son is a derivation and portion of the whole, as He Himself acknowledges: My Father is greater than I. Against Praxeas 14