(matthew 24:36) “concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the son, but only the father.".
(jesus seems to have forgotten to include the holy spirit not knowing either).
(acts 1:7) "he said to them: “it does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the father has placed in his own jurisdiction.".
I don’t know, a regular person reads the statement about the person sent not being greater than the sender and it reads like a common sense observation that the sender is obviously greater than the person being sent. A Trinitarian reads it and thinks, “well technically, they could be equal, if we ignore context, and common sense, so yeah let’s go with that, they’re equal.”
Plus there is the fact that Jesus flat out says, “the Father is greater than I”. There is that too.
"for my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the lord.
for as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
" (isaiah 55:8-9).
A couple of questions:
1. Who is more powerful a God who knows everything in the future whether he wants to or not, or a God who can choose what to know in the future?
2. God is all powerful, yet he does not express his power to the full extent in every place at every point in time, otherwise there would be equivalent of infinite atomic explosions everywhere all the time. If an almighty God can choose when to express his power and to what extent, can he not also do the same with regard to his knowledge of the future?
uh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.
Yep he’s a dream come true for WT.
Makes you wonder if it is possible he’s a plant or double agent. Not really, but he’s that bad for the “cause” it seems remotely plausible.
(matthew 24:36) “concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the son, but only the father.".
(jesus seems to have forgotten to include the holy spirit not knowing either).
(acts 1:7) "he said to them: “it does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the father has placed in his own jurisdiction.".
Your comment:
the eternal Word stoops to become the envoy, yet without surrendering his equality with the Sender.
defies common sense and scripture.
John 13:16 Very truly I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.
(matthew 24:36) “concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the son, but only the father.".
(jesus seems to have forgotten to include the holy spirit not knowing either).
(acts 1:7) "he said to them: “it does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the father has placed in his own jurisdiction.".
You claim that early Christian authors who called Jesus an angel didn’t mean he was really an angel but actually almighty God. What a remarkable linguistic trick. But where did the writers themselves ever say that?
Justin Martyr talked about the Son and “the other good angels”, clearly making Jesus an angel, and distinct and subordinate to God. Did he not mean what he wrote either?
Hence are we called atheists. And we confess that we are atheists, so far as gods of this sort are concerned, but not with respect to the most true God, the Father of righteousness and temperance and the other virtues, who is free from all impurity. But both Him, and the Son (who came forth from Him and taught us these things, and the host of the other good angels who follow and are made like to Him), and the prophetic Spirit, we worship and adore, knowing them in reason and truth, and declaring without grudging to every one who wishes to learn, as we have been taught. First Apology 6
(matthew 24:36) “concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the son, but only the father.".
(jesus seems to have forgotten to include the holy spirit not knowing either).
(acts 1:7) "he said to them: “it does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the father has placed in his own jurisdiction.".
When is an angel not an angel? When you need to prop up the trinity doctrine, that’s when!
Clement of Alexandria was clear that Jesus was an angel who became a human.
Formerly the older people had an old covenant, and the law disciplined the people with fear, and the Word was an angel; but to the fresh and new people has also been given a new covenant, and the Word has appeared, and fear is turned to love, and that mystic angel is born — Jesus. The Paedegogus 1.7
This view that Jesus was an angel in heaven before his birth was common in early Christianity until it was declared heretical in the 4th century.
(matthew 24:36) “concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the son, but only the father.".
(jesus seems to have forgotten to include the holy spirit not knowing either).
(acts 1:7) "he said to them: “it does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the father has placed in his own jurisdiction.".
Nobody can teach God anything, (According to the Bible)
Isaiah 40:14 14
Whom did the Lord consult to enlighten him,
and who taught him the right way?
Who was it that taught him knowledge,
or showed him the path of understanding?
Yet there are things Jesus doesn’t know that God knows. Therefore Jesus is not God.
If you are saying that both Jesus and God can be called “God”, but that God is superior to Jesus in knowledge (and power and eternity) then that’s actually what JWs believe, not Trinitarians.
(matthew 24:36) “concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the son, but only the father.".
(jesus seems to have forgotten to include the holy spirit not knowing either).
(acts 1:7) "he said to them: “it does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the father has placed in his own jurisdiction.".
Nobody can know more than God. If there is somebody who knows something Jesus doesn’t know, that means Jesus can’t be God.
(matthew 24:36) “concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the son, but only the father.".
(jesus seems to have forgotten to include the holy spirit not knowing either).
(acts 1:7) "he said to them: “it does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the father has placed in his own jurisdiction.".
One verse says Jesus has ALL power in heaven and earth, and another verse says that the father is greater than he is. So which is it? It's both.
Interesting misquotation there. Whether it’s deliberate or unintentional, it’s telling. Matt 28:18 doesn’t say Jesus “has” all power in heaven and earth. It says he has “been given” all power in heaven and earth. God cannot be given power by anyone. This verse proves that Jesus is not God just as much as the verse that says “the Father is greater than I”.
(matthew 24:36) “concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the son, but only the father.".
(jesus seems to have forgotten to include the holy spirit not knowing either).
(acts 1:7) "he said to them: “it does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the father has placed in his own jurisdiction.".
Absolutely, not only does Jesus nowhere claim a dual nature, nor any of the Bible writers ever mention it, but he talks and acts as if he's either totally unaware of it or else deceiving his followers about it. Of course the simplest explanation is that the theory of dual nature was developed in order to explain away all the inconvenient texts for Trinitarians that imply and flat out state Jesus is not God. The dual natures theory wasn't fleshed out until the fifth century at the Council of Chalcedon in AD 451 and it's still got people puzzling to make it make sense.
