this accomplish?
the situation which surround the soul.
change with each life, therefore how does this allow.
I knew a guy who had a personal ethic that prevented him from killing anything. He was once innudated by ants crawling all over his desk in our IT data center after all the spilt soda, candy and food remnants from lunch and snacks. I asked why he wouldn't squash them and that's when he told me he couldn't hurt living things because practiced some sort of Buddhism. So, he called in the company exterminators to take care of the problem.
Etude.
I consider this a very interesting discussion. Leolaia and ninja_matty69, you present a lot of compelling arguments on which I had to think about. ninja_matty69, your post of about 3 hours ago is epic. It also reiterates for me a plaguing question. I once asked an archaeologist I served on jury duty with how accurate C14 dating was. I mentioned my concern about how the carbon got into the specimen in the first place, especially in formerly living organisms (not just layers of rock). I asked how we were able to determine if the C14 being measured was the C14 absorbed while the tree was alive or if the C14 seeped into the tree years later after it fell and was inundated with water and C14-laden air or was deposited along with other minerals in some dinosaur bone before either was petrified. That concerned me because we know that C14 is produced in the air in different concentrations throughout the years, depending on solar activity and weather conditions. Her answer was: "I'm sure they calibrate that somehow."
Well needless to say, that was not a very satisfying answer. The only thing that is for sure about C14 is that it has a specific rate of decay or half life. What I've gathered from the discussion so far is that, while C14 dating is not meant to be completely accurate (given the percentage variances in the way it's calibrated) and serves only as a ballpark marker, we do make assumptions about how it's calibrated (that the C14 absorbed must have been constant or at least the same as in other sites tested; that the sample tested is uniform compared to the rest of the object being tested; that the percentage variance in different objects tested or the average of different readings is preferable than a single reading that can be accurately established. (http://www.nytimes.com/1990/05/31/us/errors-are-feared-in-carbon-dating.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm) I'm not saying that we (especially scientists) don't have the leniency to make those assumptions. However, if we do, we need to be willing to concede that the reading is less than 100% accurate (even if it's just close enough) or that it may be sufficiently wrong to not count.
Leolaia, I think your citation of ninja_matty69's reference to the global flood might be a bit misplaced. The key word is "IF". I hope ninja_matty69 is not asserting to the Biblical flood as an actual occurrence, even though it serves as a good scenario for what is believed is a representation of major historical floods (though not global) throughout history. The point is that if there was a significant "cloud cover" in our atmosphere (something that is also scientifically suggested at different times in our geological history), the C14 rate would have been different and would have affected samples greatly and the flooding might well have contaminated a lot of specimens.
Please carry on. I know next to nothing about this subject and would like more information. Yet, to refer to one of the original arguments and assertions regarding biblical history, I'm surprised no one has mentioned (unless I missed it) the newest references regarding the likely history of the Hebrews and why they forged (created and faked) an account (the old testament) to obscure their humble beginnings and add to their own legitimacy. One recent investigation depicts Israel as an "intellectual construct". It also points to other "cigarette-sized" scrolls found (beside the Dead Sea scrolls), which indicate sufficient differences in "old testament" accounts to signal the lore and poetic origins of the Old Testament. (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/bibles-buried-secrets.html)
In addition, there are other indications that the ancient Hebrews did and continued to worship multiple gods after a time when the Biblical account suggests otherwise. The evidence presented in the Nova show "Quest for Salomon's Mines" suggest the beginnings of the Hebrews in the desert cauldron of the Dead Sea Rift Valley. I like that a more accurate picture is emerging from these discoveries that put the legitimacy of unconfirmed writings in the proper light.
this accomplish?
the situation which surround the soul.
change with each life, therefore how does this allow.
James Brown: "There is no Grand Scheme." Exactly my point. And that is precisely why I disagree that when when you get off this ride you get onto another. No. When you get off the ride, the ride ends -- period -- end of sentence. There's no "hanging out" anywhere.
this accomplish?
the situation which surround the soul.
change with each life, therefore how does this allow.
Since some of us are now offering alternatives to reincarnation (being all part of 'god' for one), I'd like to opt for one of Paul Davies' (a well-know physicist) suggestions and select that what we are all part of a virtual reality simulation that we sometimes get to play over again. Otherwise I would have to allow for the possibility that some of us have reincarnated as rocks, by virtue of being as dumb as one. If I can't figure out how the uselessness of some individuals fit in the grand scheme of things, perhaps I need to consider that there isn't a grand scheme of things.
Etude.
this accomplish?
the situation which surround the soul.
change with each life, therefore how does this allow.
Hmmm...Strong feelings here about the subject. I guess reincarnationists must not believe in God, at least the God of the Bible because believing in God that would mean exactly the opposite: that "souls" originate (like Adam and Eve) and never come back. So, everyone after Adam and Eve came back from another life where? Nowhere, they were just new "souls", therefore "reincarnation" is inconsistent with "belief in the Bible". Otherwise, we could arbitrarily say that maybe Adam and Eve's most recent apparitions are Mitt Romney and Michelle Bachmann, one clueless dude and a crazy-ass bitch, over and over again. If reincarnation ocurred, it would seem that souls just keep coming back engendering new souls which also come back. That'a a lot of competition and terrorists get to blow themselves up over and over again until they get it right.
Etude.
this accomplish?
the situation which surround the soul.
change with each life, therefore how does this allow.
Re-incarnation was invented for the same reason resurrection was invented. It is a way to provide meaning to the apparent futility of living lives that are going to end permanently. I suppose it's difficult for many people to be aware in and of life in such a great way only to face the prospect that it will all end in one gigantic grammatical period-end of sentence.
At least with resurrection you get to comeback as yourself. But, since there aren't too many people around that have returned to tell about it, resurrection has always been deferred to some remote future, filling up people with hope.
For a more immediate reward, reincarnation can explain those nagging moments of déjà-vu and more or less confirm that we existed before, thereby reinforcing the idea. But the scheme needs to be more elaborate in order to explain the reason why we need to come back in the first place as signifying more than just our whim to want to go on in a meaningful way. So we need to invent a purpose for reincarnation: to "refine" the soul (thereby inventing the soul); to learn the correct "life lessons"; to correct and atone for the wrongs we made; etc -- all the things we wish would have done in the first place.
I don't know how true this is, but many cultures that believe in reincarnation also think that one can come back as a fly or a cow. This is one of those "lessons" that reincarnation supposedly teaches us. It's like a cosmic Santa Claus saying that if you were bad, you get to come back as a cockroach. The forces that control that selection must have a hell of sense of humor.
Since very little consciousness seems to come back at reincarnation, what part of us does the learning and gets a do-over? That's rather nebulous for most of us. It may be some core emotional center or some fundamental ethical repository that makes us who we are. Well, devoid of personality, I don't see how that makes us individuals. It would then seem that if anything comes back, it's up for grabs by the first fetus that encounters it.
OK, let's say that some personality sneaks through in reincarnation. But that would also include memories. Well, there's your déjà-vu, the kind Shirley McLain has had so many of. Damn, I must be dead now 'cause I've never had any of those. I wonder if any members of a primitive tribe in the heart of the Amazon jungle have ever felt that they once were a Marquis at the court of Luis Philippe I back in 1835 France.
the entire time i was gone it was nagging at me.
i hadn't been previously baptized, so leaving wasn't that big a deal.
now i'm back in the swing of it, going to all meetings and field service.
redvip2000, I understand what you mean. However, people in the situation you describe are ripe for mind control. If they can't find their own way in the world, then they are doomed to have someone else show it to them. Unless that other someone is a relative or a benevolent soul, they will get screwed and taken advantage of. I vacillated for a while and thought that I would someday return to the organization. But the more time went by (not 10 years), I realized that life was not like I was being told. It's not that I couldn't see what was going around me, it's that the JW influence twisted my perception to see only what they wanted me to see until I could no longer ignore that inner voice that told me otherwise. I'm afraid Jake is doomed.
Etude.
the entire time i was gone it was nagging at me.
i hadn't been previously baptized, so leaving wasn't that big a deal.
now i'm back in the swing of it, going to all meetings and field service.
Yep. I had a suspicion right from the start that Jake was really never here. That's why I said to him "if you're genuine and sincere...". It was a troll. At this point, whoever it was, has that bit of ammunition s/he was looking for without realizing the freedom of choices we mentioned: to find for him/herself what the issues are. I should have known that someone in "Jake's" position must have been encased in carbonite for 10 years to have missed what's happened in the world and the WTS so badly.
Etude.
the entire time i was gone it was nagging at me.
i hadn't been previously baptized, so leaving wasn't that big a deal.
now i'm back in the swing of it, going to all meetings and field service.
Jake:
If you're really genuine and sincere, I would like to put you across my lap and with a big paddle smack those ideas out of your behind. At the same time, I would protect your feelings about wanting to return and that apparently you're in need of something else, the thing they (the Witnesses) are so good at providing, that sense of protection, camaraderie and a sense of belonging. Well, let me give you some advice: You can find all of that elsewhere without paying their heavy price and without living their lies. Maybe the world seems "messed up" to you now, but it's all relative. When the JWs get a hold of you and you start having doubts or don't agree with something (it's bound to happen), you'll really feel messed up then. Read, read, read! And if you're still steadfast on joining them, I hope that you remember what happened on this forum when you find yourself devastated emotionally and spiritually. Maybe it will help.
Etude.
has anyone done the math and arrived at the actual numbers reflecting the growth of the jws spanning one or two decades?
back in the 70's, i remember reading in the "year book" how growth was exploding all over the place.
indeed, that's what led to the major influx of people into bethel in those years.
Has anyone done the math and arrived at the actual numbers reflecting the growth of the JWs spanning one or two decades? Back in the 70's, I remember reading in the "Year Book" how growth was exploding all over the place. Indeed, that's what led to the major influx of people into Bethel in those years. Then it dipped a bit when Armagedon didn't happen in '75.
However, with a considerable (perhaps greater) outflow of disassociated and disfellopwhiped people, what is the real growth of the organziation, if not in numbers then percentage-wise? Certainly, it can't be greater than the Mormons or even some of the evangelical mega-churches. Where can I get my hands on some numbers?
Thanks.
Etuce.
