Posts by Etude

103

My life ... and how JWD came to be - Part 5

by Simon in

my life ... and how jwd came to be - part 1. my life ... and how jwd came to be - part 2. my life ... and how jwd came to be - part 3. my life ... and how jwd came to be - part 4. i swear, i thought it was only a couple of years at most since i wrote part 4 of "my life and how jwd came to be".

i re-read it after someone posted to it and brought it back on active topics and it was kind of prophetic in a way ... well, i had the 5 years part right if nothing else:.

it would be nice to visit the site (or whatever one is around then) in 5 years time to let people know how we're doing and find only a few of the same people still around.

Etude

Simon:

I cannot express sufficiently how appreciative I am for the existence of this forum. Not even FaceBook can give me the kind of reward accompanied by a good range of emotions that I receive here. It’s not only unique due to the reason why we’re here (the JWs). It’s also unique because I can’t imagine finding a more diverse set of subjects and a vastly diverse conglomeration of people in one place. There is a good number of very interesting and intelligent people here from whom I’ve learned so much. There are others that challenge the rest with their unique perspective. I don’t know where else I would address those challenges with the ease and freedom this forum provides.

Years ago, I thought about what a shame it would be if the forum were to disappear. I was thinking that, even though you’re ultimately 100% responsible for its existence, it has become something greater than any one person. It collectively presents slices of history and events and unique stories that I doubt you find gathered anywhere else. If Armageddon does not come by the year 2525 (I’m counting decades from 1975), that generation may be looking at a great historical perspective while examining the content here. Even if observers know nothing about the JWs because the organization has disappeared, I think they will view the stories here as having a unique and significant perspective in history.

I beg that you don’t ever think again about abandoning the site and that you trust somebody to keep it going when you’re no longer able. Thank you for your investment in time, effort and dedication.

Etude.

189

Dawkins-The Greatest Show on Earth

by KateWild in

as many may be aware.

i don't like the man.

but i have chosen to review the first chapter of his book.. chapter 1... only a theory?.

Etude

QC:

I understand what you mean, but only partially. The very intent of Dawkins, as a scientist, is to explain that which seems counter intuitive. As a scientist, he feels the need to explain, via the process of Natural Selection, the anomaly of a diety. The problem is that he does not differentiate the idea of deity, religion and that sense of "more" some people call spirituality. Instead he lumps all of that into a single entity. I consider myself a profound agnostic NOT for the reason that the idea of God is impossible, but for the reason that there is no way to demonstrate that such an idea is a reality. So, I'm not ruling out the prospect that Natural Selection would have something to do with the creation of the deity concept. However, I can't assume that it did from Dawkins' explanations. They just don't hold up.

32

NNew member...1st post

by Oh Gawd in

jw
friends

new guy here so i thought i would make a brief introduction.. my exposure to the jw's is indirect, as i have never been a member; however my wife of 22 years grew up in a jw household.

her dad is the grand-pooba or whatever level of "elder" you call it for his kh.

her mom, sister, brother, and their spouses all died in the wool witnesses.

Etude

Oh Gawd:

I realize this is difficult since I have a wife already, but can I marry you? I can't get over the clarity of your thoughts in assessing not just your personal preferences but the JW religion and relating your tenacity in belief and your recognition of what's really going on in the family dynamic. You like the right things and yet have a good grasp of ideology (and where it is lacking). By way of explanation, what you describe (F-I-L not contributing money to the Borg, family still talking to you, etc) tells me that they have a clue (even if not fully conscious) on which side their bread is buttered. You can't argue with success. That happens when intelligent people who reach that state. They set different priorities. Still, we're all humans and try to keep the ties that will save us, just in case. It's like the Mafioso who puts people in cement shoes asking for the last rites at his death bed from a priest. That's why they stay. Enjoy it while it lasts. Who knows, you may present a good case to them of live a fulfilling life and not be involved with the JWs.

189

Dawkins-The Greatest Show on Earth

by KateWild in

as many may be aware.

i don't like the man.

but i have chosen to review the first chapter of his book.. chapter 1... only a theory?.

Etude

That fact that his work is criticized is because what some, or even Dawkins, characterize as "evidence", is really not evidence and hence is being challenged. That's not to say that it is out of the realm of possibility. But it can't be considered evidence unless it's been corroborated and verified.

189

Dawkins-The Greatest Show on Earth

by KateWild in

as many may be aware.

i don't like the man.

but i have chosen to review the first chapter of his book.. chapter 1... only a theory?.

Etude

konceptual99:

“It is not presented as gospel. It is not presented as infallible.”

Not quite. In fact, Dawkins’ fervor is as militant and emphatic as the best of Evangelicals on TV. As I mentioned before, I get the feeling that Dawkins is rather smug about his theories to the chagrin of other scientists. He criticizes Paul Davis (a renowned physicist) for pointing out the failure of science to explain its own foundations (beyond the Anthropic Principle) while Dawkins himself has difficulty justifying his own theories.

For example: Carl Coon (an atheist and vice president of the American Humanist Association and author of several books) puts the dismissal of Group Selection [as an alternate explication for certain non-genetic behavior], particularly coming from Dawkins, this way: “It was as though he [Dawkins] had informed me that the American Association for the Advancement of Science had repealed the law of gravity.” Now, that’s smugness and intellectual protectionism. He is not in agreement in many specific ways with the rest of the scientific community. He can advance the idea of Evolution by repeating it in his books, but not because he has all the right answers.

189

Dawkins-The Greatest Show on Earth

by KateWild in

as many may be aware.

i don't like the man.

but i have chosen to review the first chapter of his book.. chapter 1... only a theory?.

Etude

Yeah. I think he's a great writer, just not a very accurate one in the way he proposes his affirmations (his take on the Anthropic Principle, for example). His prose is superb, being English and all. I just think that in the realm of content, he stretches things a bit.

23

False Prophecy Part 3 With A Jehovahs Witness Elder

by Watchtower-Free in

jw: they are not.. kw: but if they were, would you want to know?.

jw: they are not.. kw: im not saying they are.

jw: no.. kw: really?

Etude

Watchtower-Free:

It seems you were well prepared and sufficiently cunning to not piss him off and have him walk off. I think the conversation is a testament to a clear and logical approach that can persuade. I went into Bethel around February of 1974. In about or shortly after April of 1974, I attended the Gilead graduation at Sunny Side, Queens, NY. There, Fred Franz first stated, as I heard with my own ears, that the fulfillment of 6,000 years since Adam's creation would happen in 1975 and how appropriate it would be for the 1,000 years of Christ's reign to start (meaning after Armageddon). I didn't really care because I was at Bethel and didn't have to make life-changing decisions. Nevertheless, I didn't fail to notice what that meant. After that, I really didn't hear much about people selling their houses and giving up everything because Armageddon was about to come. Even after I did, the commentary between the brothers tended to blame the people who made those decisions rather than the organization for promoting. I was very much one with the Borg.

61

Have you grown detached from caring about JW family and old friends?

by tootired2care in

jw
friends

after being out of the borg for a year and a half, weve dealt with a lot of nonsense from local elders stopping by unannounced, well-meaning do-gooders trying to encourage us.

somehow weve managed to get through this without getting dfd/dad.

for me the worst part of it all has been that much of my family has shunned me, and stopped talking to me, as soon as they heard through the grapevine that i wasnt going to meetings.

Etude

peggy: I would understand if your sister was also one to shun you, if you chose not to go. But, if you really want to go, I don't know why you would need permission from anybody. I would just show up whether that made them uncomfortable or not. I would feel that at least I did the right thing. I really don't know what I would do if my older sister passed away, mostly because she never calls me. Still, I feel a familial duty I need to perform and attend the funeral. However, if they tell me I can attend the services at the KH and not the reuninon at the house they can kiss my absent ass for the rest of their lives.

61

Have you grown detached from caring about JW family and old friends?

by tootired2care in

jw
friends

after being out of the borg for a year and a half, weve dealt with a lot of nonsense from local elders stopping by unannounced, well-meaning do-gooders trying to encourage us.

somehow weve managed to get through this without getting dfd/dad.

for me the worst part of it all has been that much of my family has shunned me, and stopped talking to me, as soon as they heard through the grapevine that i wasnt going to meetings.

Etude

For my mom and her sister (my aunt), it would never occur to them to have shunned me, absolutely out of the question. My sisters, on the other hand, acted differently from each other. The older one acted more like my mother and aunt, at first. The younger one would not stay in touch with me. Later, the younger one started fading from the organization and actually came to live with me. She expressed regret at having shunned me and rued that she missed so much time with me. When my older sister and I got into it one day (over snail mail), I reminded her how poorly she acted by staying in touch with me because that's not what the WTBTS recommends. I included an article from the Watchtower showing how shunning is a good thing and brought one person to reconsider and return to the organization. I told her she should have acted like my younger sister did at first. Unfortunately, all six nephews and nieces think I'm a spiritual leper. It hurts because not matter what, I know we can never have the good that could have been. Otherwise, I don't care and there’s nobody else that matters. I have been able to establish connections on FaceBook with a lot of ex-JWs I knew. But nothing really close.

68

More WT Propaganda: Low Paying Jobs are OK for Family Heads. Just "Don't Miss the Meetings!"

by Oubliette in

god, evidently, wants you to be poor: .

a newly baptized brother is married, and he and his wife have three small children.

one day, a workmate suggested that he and the brother move to another company that paid a higher wage and provided more benefits.

Etude

I knew a few guys (lifers) who would crap their pants at the prospect of leaving Bethel. They would not know what to do and how they would have supported themselves. Most had no skills and would have been devestated if they found themselves out in the world and having to find work and shelter. Even some who had to leave, like my brother-in-law (my sister got pregnant), had a job lined up with a "brother" and sadly found out it was just talk. They ended up living in my parent's basement.