Posts by Etude

22

he refused a transfusion... and died

by sister x in

growing up my mom told me that my father passed away from a heart attack in 1989 and i always believed her.

a few yrs ago i went snooping in her closet and found my fathers medical records.

i took them without her knowing and read them when i got home.. i have worked in hospitals all my life and i am an rn, im use to reviewing records.

Etude

Wow sister x! That's a hard thing to discover. If your mother is still a Witness, it seems to me she has chosen her path and her punishment. Being a Witness is piling insult on the injury of refusing blood for your father. I don't know the actual circumstances but it seems, according to you, that it was her decision to not give him blood. Well, you know how that goes. Either way, it would have been a life changing decision. Do you know how your father would have reacted if he'd lived and felt he violated some law of God? Would he have been angry? It's quite possible he would have been grateful. It's also possible that by giving him blood and suffering the consequences that would follow, your mom might have been happy along with her living husband.

I don't know. I'm looking at this from many angles. I hope you're mom makes a realization and can forgive herself, especially by leaving the JWs. You might try exposing her (in subtle ways) to the information about how hypocritical the WTBTS is about the blood issue. Use the "you can't have a ham and cheese sandwich" parallel with the "but you can have some ham or some cheese or some bread" argument.

68

Why do Jehovah's Witnesses keep track of field service hours?

by Faithful Witness in

i understand that they claim to have the responsibility to preach to every corner of the earth, so they can encourage armageddon to come quickly.

(matthew 24:14 "and this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

what rationale do they have, for keeping track of their hours and literature placements?

Etude

Stand for Pure Worship:

“I've always likened an individual's time card as a medical record in the sense that when the Circuit Overseer visits, he can review the overall spiritual health of individual publishers and the congregation.”

Spiritual health my ass. It’s all about control. If they don’t like the numbers, you can expect a talk from the platform or an article in the magazines or even direct counseling to you for not dedicating enough hours. When you train somebody right, you’d be surprised what they’ll do for you, how far they’ll go for you. When I was around, I was amazed how many people fudge their hours. They went out to visit somebody for 10 minutes but counted the whole 40 minutes it took to go there and come back as dedicate hours. It turned out not to be a pleasure to preach. It became a chore.

Please, tell me when in the 1 st century did they go around taking peoples spiritual temperature. Tell me where they sent those hours and to whom, back in the first century. Tell me how the duty of a Christian in the first century changed from a “publisher” to a “pioneer” to a “special pioneer”, etc, etc.

If “spiritual health” is what they’re measuring, then reporting hours is the rectal thermometer they use to determine it. Anyway you look at it, it’s not very pleasant considering it’s not even the only thing they like to probe you with. I don’t know about you but I like to keep my spiritual health (anus) free of objects.

178

Honest survey question on effectiveness of 'apostacy'

by Simon in

jw
friends

it seems like lots of people have big dreams of 'destroying the watchtower'.

it's usually linked to a story of how they were wronged and want some revenge.

do these 'in your face' attempts to convince people that the truth isn't the truth really have an effect?.

Etude

The reason I started as a JW at the age of 16 was because, while watching the world and the things that happened in it, I had an intrinsic need for justice and protection. Because of some opportune people that showed up at my house, that need was hijacked and misdirected. I suppose that I was shaped by my environment, not just about the concept of God but also by seeing a challenge of established views. After all, the Hippie Movement set the tone for that in my generation.

So, my drive to question was already there. I guess it just didn’t stop after I swallowed the fairy tale. I remember crossing Columbia Heights going from one Bethel building to another and seeing a group of apostates with signs picketing on the side walk. I had never seen that before. Even though I looked at them with a little disdain, I do remember wanting to know what they were protesting about and why they were so brazen to be in public that way. Later on, when I had known for a while that we were not supposed to speak to people who had left the “Truth”, I still maintained contact with an ex-sister who I had determined was a decent human being. I guess it was the inconsistencies I observed while a JW that made them implode in my mind.

To consider your question Simon, whether apostasy (as I saw it) was effective in my case, it’s difficult for me to tell which came first: whether my questioning attitude drove me out or examples of people (apostates) made me leave. I think it was the first case. Many other people had the same examples I faced and never got out. So, I don’t think one can actually argue against the colossal edifice of rules and justifications the WTBTS has built and cause people to leave, even with logic. It seems to me that the exit process is a very individual journey.

Still, I feel a sense of duty pointing out how wrong a person can be when they aren’t logical about they believe and ignore hard evidence. When I was a “witless”, I spoke at his door with a Catholic man. He said to me that his parents were Catholic, he was baptized a Catholic and that he would die a Catholic (even if he seldom went to mass or even followed Catholicism well). I had just demonstrated to him that Mary was not always a virgin. But that didn’t matter to him enough to change the belief of her beatification, what mattered (I suppose) was the tradition he inherited and the idea that he had to have something with which to identify. At least, I felt that I had given him a piece of information that corrected his understanding. Beyond that, it seems that it is an individual responsibility whether the person acts on that or not. It works for some people and it doesn’t work with others. I never really know. But whether it works or not, I can’t help but argue against nonsense. Short of cult deprogramming, the way they used to do it in the late 1960s and 1970s, I don’t see a way to get somebody out who doesn’t want to get out.

So, if activism against the JWs means having a fervent desire to correct a wrong, I guess I’m one. But it’s much more than that. For me, questioning in light of doubt is a universal drive I have. It doesn’t really matter what it’s about.

85

Atheists, what is the best argument FOR God?

by bohm in

there are no convincing arguments for god, but some are worse than others.

i thought it would be interesting to see what people consider the best (of the bad) arguments for god?.

in my oppinion it is the fine-tuning argument from cosmology.

Etude

I think there is a fundamental problem with beginnings and causation. Maybe it has to do with our limitations of time and maybe even the idea of time (some physicists say it really doesn’t exist). It works the same for God and Science. When arguing about who made he who made God (ad nauseam), I think of a period when Science assumed that the Universe always existed (in Newton’s day) and then when it was changed to an eternal alternation of contraction and explosion (the Oscillating theory of the Universe). But now, based on expansion rates, we don’t expect it to contract and can calculate that it is approximately 13.8 billion years old since its beginning.

The difficulty stems from asking what was before the universe became or how the matter for the singularity of the Big Bang came to be. Science’s Holy Grail is to find an ultimate answer that not only explains how it all came to be but also why it came to be the way it ended up being. So, for Science, the question of beginnings remains a philosophical one and almost as fleeting as it is for a theist. The difference is that Science can afford to speculate (guess) with much greater confidence.

22

first T-day dinner this year

by Hortensia in

jw
friends

i live in a seniors-only apartment complex.

management has a tendency to patronize us, which is interesting and rather entertaining.

today we had our annual t-day dinner for the seniors, catered by a local church.

Etude

Hortensia: That story is a hoot. Have you ever thought about writing essays of your experiences? You can start a blog for that. Create one each month or however often you choose. It would be fun to read them.

24

10,000 year old spear point found in FL - man is only 6,000 years old?

by Comatose in

http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/16/us/florida-spring-artifacts/index.html?hpt=hp_c2.

as evidence piles up, will we reach a tipping point where people begin accepting the age of humans existence?.

he described as "phenomenal" the preservation of the finds, whose location as many as 5 feet deep in oxygen-free sediment had protected them from decay.. they include a suwannee projectile point -- a spear point -- whose estimated age of 10,000 years puts it "right at the cusp of the end of the ice age," arbuthnot said.

Etude

What you all don't understand is that when Adam was cast out of Eden, many of his descendents retired in Florida. Let's face it, land was easier to get and there where lots bogs and everglades to hunt in, especially after the Great Flood. That tradition of retirement remains to this day.

13

Faithful Daughter Shuns Aging Mother

by Etude in

jw
friends

.

Etude

I don't know how true that account is. It just seemed to me that it's much like many instances I've heard about and situations the WTBTS itself uses to convince that the shunning practice works and can make people return. Here are a few examples:

"The situation is different if the disfellowshipped or disassociated one is a relative living outside the immediate family circle and home. It might be possible to have almost no contact at all with the relative. Even if there were some family matters requiring contact, this certainly would be kept to a minimum, in line with the divine principle: 'Quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person [or guilty of another gross sin], . . . not even eating with such a man.' " —1 Corinthians 5:11. http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/1988/4/15/article_01.htm

From the same article as I cited above, consider how the practice of alienation is encouraged:

“Lynette's sister later told her: 'If you had viewed the disfellowshipping lightly, I know that I would not have taken steps toward reinstatement as soon as I did. Being totally cut off from loved ones and from close contact with the congregation created a strong desire to repent. I realized just how wrong my course was and how serious it was to turn my back on Jehovah.'

In another case, Laurie's parents were disfellowshipped. Yet she says: 'My association with them never stopped but increased. As time went on, I became more and more inactive. I got to the point of not even attending meetings.' Then she read material in The Watchtower of September 1 and 15, 1981, that stressed the counsel of 1 Corinthians 5:11-13 and 2 John 9-11. "It was as if a light bulb were turned on in me," she writes. 'I knew I would have to make some changes. I now better understand the meaning of Matthew 10:34-36. My decision was not an easy one for my family to swallow, for my son, five, is the only boy, and they love him dearly.' It is hoped that losing such association will touch the parents' hearts, as it did Margaret's. Still, the discipline involved helped Laurie: 'I am back out in the field ministry. My marriage and family are stronger because of my change, and so am I.' ”

The example is designed to show how shunning within a family works. No kidneys donated in the story, but the situation and the pain is the same.

64

Is JWN an unforgiving place

by usualusername in

jw
friends

over many years i have looked at jwn.

in fact barely a day goes by without my fix.. .

it is a site of contradictions.. .

Etude

I have seen enough name-calling and attempts to belittle individuals for their views here to agree that sometimes it can be hostile on this forum. But that doesn't make the forum a complete place of hostility. A lot of caring also goes on in here, a lot of sympathizing, a lot of understanding and even friendships. I'm willing to put up with disagreement. But, I must admit that when people resort to insults, I give it right back. If they can dish it out, they should be able to take it. What I do afterwards is think about those negative people and try to picture them in their daily life and think about what type of individuals they are. That makes them more human and makes me think that they may not be so negative just because they say negative things. Others can be complete assholes and attack people instead of ideas. That's just how some people are. Still, I have seen many apologize for something they said that was insensitive. I'm not sure I would use one description to categorize this place. I would say it's all of the above and anything else you find it means to you.

97

I like you more if you are literratte

by usualusername in

jw
friends

as a daily visitor of this site i am shocked by how judgemental i am.. .

if someone makes a valid point but does not spell well it colours my judgement.. .

if someone who is a clown has excellent grammar i give them leeway.. as an aside i am a gramaphobe.. .

Etude

I can illustrate my problem this way. In my post above (414) started to write: "I'm suddenly reminded of a joke regarding a grammatical Nazi..." I changed the sentence to say "I'm suddenly remembering a joke regarding a grammatical Nazi..." What happened is that is that I changed "reminded" to "remembering" and left the "of" in place. So the sentence looks really awkward. I think the site gives you like 10 seconds to edit or the post commits. And so my bad grammar will linger in perpetuity.

85

Dawkins Chapter 2 - Dogs, Cows and Cabbages

by KateWild in

i have to say, i am afraid i found this chapter labourious to read in most places.

imo i felt he just wasn't getting to the point.

i don't get why dawkins felt the need to teach me all about platoism, essentialism and rabbits.

Etude

tec:

The reason I commented about you and that other interminable thread was that I identified you views here on this post. I’m also basing my comments and a return to that old thread based on what Qcmbr said in his post 3205 and 3207. It’s just like something I said to you about a year ago. snare&racket (Post 1932) reiterated the issue here that I presented to you then. My ultimate conclusion was that your certainty about God (or something that speaks to you) is purely contained in your head and cannot be substantiated by any means possible to others. Even if others express the same thing to you that you feel, that other person’s feelings cannot be confirmed outside of his or her mind. You would have to simply trust him or her. My main point is that this is indistinguishable from illusion.