Posts by Etude

79

The life differences between a good christian and good athiest

by EndofMysteries in

let's compare a christian who goes to a non judgemental / non guilt trip church which focuses really on the gospels, jesus teachings on being non judgemental, anything out of love there is no law against, and they contribute to society.

then an athiest who if you put side by side w/ the above christian, you would not know any difference unless you asked their beliefs.

both are good people, who are able to lead lives doing what they want, enjoying their life, and trying to help their neighbors too.

Etude

EndofMysteries: I find the scenario you present interesting and yet a bit confusing because I don’t think the parallel you present is actually a parallel but diverging ideas instead. For example: You present two individuals leading an exemplary life but one (the religious one) dying with hope that the other (the atheist) dying without hope. Why must it be so? It doesn’t have to be. There are other possibilities. First of all, assuming that hope actually means something or that it has any possibility of bringing a different path after death, I don’t see why an atheist can’t hope that by preserving his DNA and with some sort of memory retrieval by a new scientific means that s/he can’t attain the hope to live again. There are cryogenic banks that preserve people today in the hope that science can revive them and restore their bodies again. That’s hope. Isn’t it?

What about the religious person who dies with hope and gets none because there was never a god to begin with who was going to bring a resurrection and a better life? At least for the atheist not having any hope and receiving none is not such a raw deal because, being dead, s/he would never know what did or did not happen. That would assume that the god who gives hope to the religious person would not revive the atheists just to torture him or her. The question of happiness based on a single outcome (resurrection) is meaningless. Happiness is a by-product of living, not dying. It is the way you lead your life that produces it. I think there’s probably a good degree of satisfaction at the end of one’s life, after having lived it well to not care what happens afterwards.

I don’t understand the idea of comparison between an atheist and a religious person, both living an exemplary life. It goes without saying that whether one believes in God or not, people can be moral and generous and kind. So, religion has nothing to do with those attributes. Why should that earn points for the religious individual and not for the atheist regardless of belief?

Thinking about the first option for the atheist, I think it’s just as good a deal for the theist if science were to find a way to bring all people back in some future. The problem would be that the religious person would be disappointed about who brought him or her back. Still, it’s better to be a live dog than a dead lion.

74

The Gall Of WT To Give This Advice To Pioneers:

by JW GoneBad in

this past week's wt study lesson was entitled: 'pioneering strengthens our relationship with god'.. under the subheading 'remaining in the full-time service' in par 14 the wt has the nerve to give this admonition to pioneers: .

'desiring to learn from jesus' example, a pioneer does well to keep in mind that the more material things he has, the more he will have to maintain , repair, or replace.'.

i don't think the gb or anyone in the writing department has the freedom to speak on giving adivce on the matter of 'material things' given the fact that wt has close to a billion dollars in real estate and loads of money in various bank accounts; given the fact that gb is currently building themselves new living quarters with who knows what sort of comforts and other amenities.

Etude

Brother Mike: If I were to tell an investor that "it would be interesting" that Twitter was planning an IPO at $26 and that the stock could possibly jump to $42 before it was announced, I be thrown in jail for insider trading. Don't split hairs here. You or the WTBTS can't get away with that and then blame the people who acted on a "tip" for their own foolishness. Whatever they said was more than a suggestion. It was an enticement and it was wrong and obviously just wishful thinking based on some stupid chronology. Of course they weren't going to come out and say it plainly! They'd tried before and were wrong then. They were just being a bit more careful that last time.

5

HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYONE!

by Etude in

jw
friends

i'm thankful for my wife, my dog, my friends, my life and this forum.

i can think of other things i could be thankful for that have not come to pass.

but for now, it looks pretty good from here.

Etude

I'm thankful for my wife, my dog, my friends, my life and this forum. I can think of other things I could be thankful for that have not come to pass. But for now, it looks pretty good from here. I wish you all the best.

Etude.

47

First time poster

by kneehighmiah in

jw
friends

i finally decided to post.

i'm so scared of being caught, so i'll be vague.

i'm an appointed brother.

Etude

Glad to have you aboard, kneehighmiah. I think that if you keep going in the same direction you're in now, you will be able to look back in a few years and marvel at your own transformation. I think that for a lot of people, leaving does not happen overnight. Be careful. Try to retain your friends and family if that's possible.

162

True Stories from the Tower - Part 1 "From Anointed to Pedophile to Bethelite"

by BluePill2 in

before i dive into the actual write-up of this experience, let me put some things straight.. i have thought long and hard if i should write more about my experiences during the 10+ years at different branches.

during these years i worked from financial department, service department, home office and different it assignments.

as you can imagine one sees and hears and reads a lot of stuff going through different stations in different countries.

Etude

BluePill2:

I'm very saddened by but not shocked at your story. Each similar story bears its own pain. The thing is, I've seen some and heard more of equally bad experiences that I feel a bit blasé and unsurprised about such happenings (of course, not about the victims). I can still feel anger about those happenings but that's a hard thing to live with for any extended time. I don’t want to be angry all the time. I don't know what it will take to shock me about the JW organization. Nevertheless, I think it should all be heard. Please continue to tell it like you saw it. It's not just cathartic for you but also for the rest of us.

33

First Post - Introduction

by Syme in

jw
friends

this is my first post on jwn, and i would like to take a few lines to introduce myself.. i currently am still in the organization, though my conviction in the last 1-2 years is more or less agnostic/atheist (closer to atheist).

i am an ex-elder and mts graduate, having served in another 3 congregations, apart from my home one.. the reason for the above-mentioned conviction shift has to do with science and rational, logical thinking generally, and with the grand theory of evolution, specifically.

it took me long, endless sessions of hard reading and study of serious scientific literature (plus cross-matching all the quotes and claims in jw evolution-related literature), to finally make the shift from utterly firm religious belief to doubt, and then to lack of religious faith.

Etude

Welcome, Syme. Thanks for letting us share in your journey.

22

Alzheimer's hallucinations are demons?

by Once Blind in

my father has been suffering from alzheimer's for a couple of years now.

my mother keeps referring to his hallucinations as demons.

i haven't been to the hall in a while, i've been fading for 20 years now, but i find this amazing!

Etude

Once Blind:

Please make arrangements and take your mom to a session at your local Alzheimer’s Association chapter. Call them first and set it up. The counsel is free. I think that what will transpire might set your mom’s mind at ease. It will help everyone understand the symptoms and the progression of the disease. My mom died from the condition and I felt it was ironic that, after being a faithful Witness for a long time, she had no idea what God was, let along the Jehovah’s Witnesses. In the end, they all abandoned her anyway.

22

he refused a transfusion... and died

by sister x in

growing up my mom told me that my father passed away from a heart attack in 1989 and i always believed her.

a few yrs ago i went snooping in her closet and found my fathers medical records.

i took them without her knowing and read them when i got home.. i have worked in hospitals all my life and i am an rn, im use to reviewing records.

Etude

Wow sister x! That's a hard thing to discover. If your mother is still a Witness, it seems to me she has chosen her path and her punishment. Being a Witness is piling insult on the injury of refusing blood for your father. I don't know the actual circumstances but it seems, according to you, that it was her decision to not give him blood. Well, you know how that goes. Either way, it would have been a life changing decision. Do you know how your father would have reacted if he'd lived and felt he violated some law of God? Would he have been angry? It's quite possible he would have been grateful. It's also possible that by giving him blood and suffering the consequences that would follow, your mom might have been happy along with her living husband.

I don't know. I'm looking at this from many angles. I hope you're mom makes a realization and can forgive herself, especially by leaving the JWs. You might try exposing her (in subtle ways) to the information about how hypocritical the WTBTS is about the blood issue. Use the "you can't have a ham and cheese sandwich" parallel with the "but you can have some ham or some cheese or some bread" argument.

68

Why do Jehovah's Witnesses keep track of field service hours?

by Faithful Witness in

i understand that they claim to have the responsibility to preach to every corner of the earth, so they can encourage armageddon to come quickly.

(matthew 24:14 "and this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

what rationale do they have, for keeping track of their hours and literature placements?

Etude

Stand for Pure Worship:

“I've always likened an individual's time card as a medical record in the sense that when the Circuit Overseer visits, he can review the overall spiritual health of individual publishers and the congregation.”

Spiritual health my ass. It’s all about control. If they don’t like the numbers, you can expect a talk from the platform or an article in the magazines or even direct counseling to you for not dedicating enough hours. When you train somebody right, you’d be surprised what they’ll do for you, how far they’ll go for you. When I was around, I was amazed how many people fudge their hours. They went out to visit somebody for 10 minutes but counted the whole 40 minutes it took to go there and come back as dedicate hours. It turned out not to be a pleasure to preach. It became a chore.

Please, tell me when in the 1 st century did they go around taking peoples spiritual temperature. Tell me where they sent those hours and to whom, back in the first century. Tell me how the duty of a Christian in the first century changed from a “publisher” to a “pioneer” to a “special pioneer”, etc, etc.

If “spiritual health” is what they’re measuring, then reporting hours is the rectal thermometer they use to determine it. Anyway you look at it, it’s not very pleasant considering it’s not even the only thing they like to probe you with. I don’t know about you but I like to keep my spiritual health (anus) free of objects.

178

Honest survey question on effectiveness of 'apostacy'

by Simon in

jw
friends

it seems like lots of people have big dreams of 'destroying the watchtower'.

it's usually linked to a story of how they were wronged and want some revenge.

do these 'in your face' attempts to convince people that the truth isn't the truth really have an effect?.

Etude

The reason I started as a JW at the age of 16 was because, while watching the world and the things that happened in it, I had an intrinsic need for justice and protection. Because of some opportune people that showed up at my house, that need was hijacked and misdirected. I suppose that I was shaped by my environment, not just about the concept of God but also by seeing a challenge of established views. After all, the Hippie Movement set the tone for that in my generation.

So, my drive to question was already there. I guess it just didn’t stop after I swallowed the fairy tale. I remember crossing Columbia Heights going from one Bethel building to another and seeing a group of apostates with signs picketing on the side walk. I had never seen that before. Even though I looked at them with a little disdain, I do remember wanting to know what they were protesting about and why they were so brazen to be in public that way. Later on, when I had known for a while that we were not supposed to speak to people who had left the “Truth”, I still maintained contact with an ex-sister who I had determined was a decent human being. I guess it was the inconsistencies I observed while a JW that made them implode in my mind.

To consider your question Simon, whether apostasy (as I saw it) was effective in my case, it’s difficult for me to tell which came first: whether my questioning attitude drove me out or examples of people (apostates) made me leave. I think it was the first case. Many other people had the same examples I faced and never got out. So, I don’t think one can actually argue against the colossal edifice of rules and justifications the WTBTS has built and cause people to leave, even with logic. It seems to me that the exit process is a very individual journey.

Still, I feel a sense of duty pointing out how wrong a person can be when they aren’t logical about they believe and ignore hard evidence. When I was a “witless”, I spoke at his door with a Catholic man. He said to me that his parents were Catholic, he was baptized a Catholic and that he would die a Catholic (even if he seldom went to mass or even followed Catholicism well). I had just demonstrated to him that Mary was not always a virgin. But that didn’t matter to him enough to change the belief of her beatification, what mattered (I suppose) was the tradition he inherited and the idea that he had to have something with which to identify. At least, I felt that I had given him a piece of information that corrected his understanding. Beyond that, it seems that it is an individual responsibility whether the person acts on that or not. It works for some people and it doesn’t work with others. I never really know. But whether it works or not, I can’t help but argue against nonsense. Short of cult deprogramming, the way they used to do it in the late 1960s and 1970s, I don’t see a way to get somebody out who doesn’t want to get out.

So, if activism against the JWs means having a fervent desire to correct a wrong, I guess I’m one. But it’s much more than that. For me, questioning in light of doubt is a universal drive I have. It doesn’t really matter what it’s about.