Posts by TheListener

I say decide ahead of time what you'll say and practice it repeatedly. Put the TMS into practice and use repetition for emphasis. Jgnat's and others comments could be useful, just make sure you're comfortable with your own party line.

As far as the book goes: keep it. Just keep it. Did I say you should keep it. Yes, keep it. In case I forgot to mention it you should keep your flock book. Yeah, don't turn in your flock book. Get a friend and turn it into a pdf.

I know how you feel and it isn't good. I don't know your family situation but they've obviously caught on that something is up. Perhaps it's time to cease and desist from meetings and service. Once you do that there is a lot less likelihood of meeting up with your old elder buddies. It takes effort on their part to contact you. You know as well as I that elders hate effort. Out of sight out of mind - well, for the most part.

Good luck.

74

PAYPAL ACCOUNT SET UP FOR DONATIONS FOR LAWSUIT AGAINST THE WATCHTOWER

by SHUNNED FATHER in

jw
friends

thankyou for wanting to help.

i believe i have a good chance of winning this lawsuit.

the watchtower lawyers are defendants and have tried three times to have the lawsuit thrown out and have failed.

TheListener

I am ready and willing to help out financially.

I just need to make sure of two things:

1. I need it to be totally untraceable and anonymous (same thing?). The WTS and my family will have my head on a platter if they found out I contributed to this cause. It may not matter to some here but to me it would undo years of hard effort.

2. I need assurances that the poster on the board is the real person involved

I'll admit I don't need fancy trust funds or double signature accounts. I just need some verification that the poster is the litigant. (Hey Oroborus, litigant is my new legal word of the day :) ).

27

Last king of the north - Russia

by TheListener in

from the 2005 cdrom there are plenty of references to russia being the king of the north.

this starts, as far as i found, at least as early as 1960. what is more difficult to locate are articles that imply that russia is the last kofn.

if anyone has any handy please paste them.

TheListener

Yes, Blondie you're correct. In fact the Dp book has a nice little WT graph that shows the identity of the KOTN and the KOTS through history.

What I find interesting is that up until the Soviet empire crumbled the WTS was teaching that Daniel 11:44,45 was the next step to occur ***WITH THE THEN CURRENT*** KOTN and KOTS (Russia;Anglo-American).

When the Communist empire crumbled they had to back up and allow for a new KOTN, yet to be determined, to appear. That set them back substantially in their THE END IS NOW NOW NOW NOW routine.

What is funny to me is that current dubs, most of which never studied the older articles on this subject, feel that the WTS has such a handle on this prophetic stuff. In reality they just change, change, change and most don't really care.

27

Last king of the north - Russia

by TheListener in

from the 2005 cdrom there are plenty of references to russia being the king of the north.

this starts, as far as i found, at least as early as 1960. what is more difficult to locate are articles that imply that russia is the last kofn.

if anyone has any handy please paste them.

TheListener

From the 2005 CdRom there are plenty of references to Russia being the King of the North. This starts, as far as I found, at least as early as 1960. What is more difficult to locate are articles that imply that Russia is the last KOFN. If anyone has any handy please paste them. I found the following on my own:

***

w81 7/15 p. 7 The Power Struggle—What Outcome? ***

How will these "kings" come to their end "without hand" and with "no helper"? Their end will not come about by human means. Daniel’s prophecy continues: "And during that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of your [Daniel’s and therefore Jehovah’s] people. And there will certainly occur a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time." (Dan. 12:1) Michael is none other than Jehovah’s appointed King Jesus Christ. (Compare Revelation 12:7-10.) The "time of distress" is the "great tribulation" mentioned in Jesus’ own prophecy about the "conclusion of the system of things" and his "presence" in his kingdom.—Matt. 24:3, 21; Luke chap. 21.

The present-day fulfillment of these prophecies shows that we are now living at the "time of the end." Soon Christ will bring to an end the Communist "king of the north" and the non-Communist "king of the south." Indeed, the enthroned King Jesus Christ will "strike" them and all other political nations with a "sharp long sword," and "he will shepherd them with a rod of iron." (Rev. 19:11-21) Yet another dramatic prophecy in the book of Daniel will thus complete its fulfillment, for we read: "And in the days of those kings [political powers] the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite."—Dan. 2:34, 35, 44.

***

w86 10/15 p. 5 The Global Power Struggle—Who Will Win? ***

Who

Will Win?

What, though, restrains these ‘kings’ from an outright final war? One major factor is that they dread the mutual destructiveness of their nuclear arms. They prefer to negotiate agreements, even though these are rarely honored. As Daniel foretold: "At one table a lie is what they will keep speaking. But nothing will succeed, because the end is yet for the time appointed."—Daniel 11:27.

So you likely want to know, What will finally happen? Will they eventually negotiate lasting peace? Or will one defeat the other? According to the prophecy in God’s Word, the answer to both questions is, No! Why? Because a third king will defeat them and take over world control. So there will be a change of rulership—soon!

***

w87 7/1 pp. 13-15 ‘No Peace for the Wicked Ones’ ***

"The

Time of the End"

13

What time is this? Sometimes the expression "time of the end" refers to the time of the end of this system of things, from 1914 to Armageddon. (Daniel 8:17, 19; 12:4) But events in the year 1914, "the time appointed," were foretold back in verse 29, and the angel’s prophecy has brought us far beyond that. Hence, "the time of the end" here in verse 40 must refer to the final stages of the 2,300-year-long struggle between the king of the north and the king of the south. We read on, then, with great interest, since we now learn of events to take place in the near future. By now, shifts in power on the world scene have led to further developments in the identity of the two kings. Since the collapse of the Nazi-Fascist powers at the end of World War II, we have witnessed rivalry between two superpowers, one represented as the king of the north, dominating a mostly socialistic bloc of nations, and the other represented as the king of the south, dominating a largely capitalistic bloc.

14

The disposition of the latest king of the north is well described in verses 37, 38: "And to the God of his fathers he will give no consideration . . . But to the god of fortresses, in his position he will give glory; and to a god that his fathers did not know he will give glory by means of gold and by means of silver and by means of precious stone and by means of desirable things." Can anyone fail to recognize this description? Today’s king of the north officially promotes atheism, rejecting the religious gods of previous kings of the north. He prefers to trust in armaments, "the god of fortresses." This has contributed to a frantic arms race for which the two kings must share responsibility. Yearly defense spending by the king of the north alone reached almost 300 billion dollars in 1985. What a huge sacrifice of ‘gold and silver and precious stone and desirable things’ to the insatiable god of armaments!

15

So, what finally happens between these two kings? The angel says: "And in the time of the end [the end of the history of the two kings] the king of the south will engage with him in a pushing, and against him the king of the north will storm with chariots and with horsemen and with many ships." (Daniel 11:40; Matthew 24:3) Clearly, summit conferences are no solution to the superpower rivalry. The tensions caused by the ‘pushing’ of the king of the south and the expansionism of the king of the north may go through more or less intense phases; but eventually, in some way, the king of the north will be provoked into the excessively violent action described by Daniel.

16

These final days are especially difficult for God’s people, who during this century have been persecuted by both kings. The angel warned that the king of the north "will also actually enter into the land of the Decoration, and there will be many lands that will be made to stumble." "The land of the Decoration" is symbolically the land of God’s people. The angel’s words must mean, then, that as well as conquering many nations, the king of the north attacks the spiritual estate of Jehovah’s people. (Daniel 8:9; 11:41-44; Ezekiel 20:6) In verse 45, the prophecy adds: "And he will plant his palatial tents between the grand sea and the holy mountain of Decoration." In other words, he positions himself to make a final assault against their spiritual paradise.

"All

the Way to His End"

17

But by then something will already have happened that neither the king of the north nor the king of the south foresaw. The angel prophesies: "But there will be reports that will disturb [the king of the north], out of the sunrising and out of the north, and he will certainly go forth in a great rage in order to annihilate and to devote many to destruction."—Daniel 11:44.

18

What will these reports be? The angel does not specify, but he does reveal their source. They come "out of the sunrising," and Jehovah God and Jesus Christ are alluded to as "the kings from the rising of the sun." (Revelation 16:12) These reports also come "out of the north," and the Bible speaks symbolically of Mount Zion, the town of the grand King Jehovah, as being "on the remote sides of the north." (Psalm 48:2) Hence, it is "reports" from Jehovah God and Jesus Christ that send the king of the north on his last great campaign. But the results will be devastating to him. The end of verse 45 tells us: "He will have to come all the way to his end, and there will be no helper for him."

19

Indeed, there will be "no peace . . . for the wicked ones." (Isaiah 57:21) Rather, the history of the king of the north will be marked by warfare right up to the end. But for His faithful servants, Jehovah promises: "The upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it. As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth." (Proverbs 2:21, 22) What, though, will happen to the king of the south when the king of the north ‘comes all the way to his end’? What will happen to Christians when the king of the north ‘plants his palatial tents’ in a menacing position against them? (Daniel 11:45) How will peace finally come to the earth? Jehovah, through his angel, has answered these questions, as we will see in the following articles.

UH - OH THE KING OF THE NORTH DISBANDED - WHAT TO PRINT NOW?

***

w93 11/1 p. 21 The Final Victory of Michael, the Great Prince ***

Final

Campaign of the Northern King

10

Does the rivalry between the two kings continue indefinitely? No. The angel told Daniel: "There will be reports that will disturb him [the king of the north], out of the sunrising and out of the north, and he will certainly go forth in a great rage in order to annihilate and to devote many to destruction. And he will plant his palatial tents between the grand sea and the holy mountain of Decoration; and he will have to come all the way to his end, and there will be no helper for him."—Daniel 11:44, 45.

11

These events are yet future, so we cannot say in detail how the prophecy will be fulfilled. Recently, the political situation regarding the two kings has changed. The bitter rivalry between the United States and Eastern European countries has cooled. Further, the Soviet Union was disbanded in 1991 and no longer exists.—See the March 1, 1992, issue of The Watchtower, pages 4, 5.

12

So who is the king of the north now? Is he to be identified with one of the countries that were part of the old Soviet Union? Or is he changing identity completely, as he has a number of times before? We cannot say. Who will be the king of the north when Daniel 11:44, 45 is fulfilled? Will the rivalry between the two kings flare up again? And what of the huge nuclear stockpiles that still exist in a number of lands? Only time will provide the answers to these questions.

13

One thing we do know. Soon, the king of the north will conduct an offensive campaign that will be triggered by "reports that will disturb him, out of the sunrising and out of the north." This campaign will immediately precede his "end." We can learn more about these "reports" if we consider other Bible prophecies.

Per the Daniel Book:

*** dp chap. 16 p. 280 par. 21 The Contending Kings Near Their End ***

With the disbanding of the Soviet Union in December 1991, the king of the north suffered a serious setback. Who will be this king when Daniel 11:44, 45 is fulfilled? Will he be identified with one of the countries that were part of the former Soviet Union? Or will he change identity completely, as he has done a number of times before? Will the development of nuclear weapons by additional nations result in a new arms race and have a bearing on the identity of that king? Only time will provide answers to these questions. We are wise not to speculate. When the king of the north embarks on his final campaign, the fulfillment of prophecy will be clearly discerned by all who have Bible-based insight.—See "Kings in Daniel Chapter 11," on page 284.

Per previous WT articles (do a search on the 2005 CDRom for Daniel 11:44,45) Russia and the eastern bloc fulfilled these verses. I guess things can change when you're not inspired and everyone agrees that everything you say comes from God.

8

Cosmic Rays = King of the North? Connected?

by TheListener in

hmmmm, i wonder if they thought the end was near in 1960?

yes, the answer is yes; they did think the end was near.

bwahahahaha.. *** w60 4/1 pp.

TheListener

Hmmmm, I wonder if they thought the end was near in 1960? Yes, the answer is yes; they did think the end was near. Bwahahahaha.

***

w60 4/1 pp. 218-219 pars. 22-25 Part 35—"Your Will Be Done on Earth" ***

22

Not to be dismissed from consideration as "fearful sights" and "great signs" from heaven are new things that modern science is discovering and bringing to the people’s attention, to their own and the people’s mental agitation and rising fears. The so-called cosmic rays are more and more commanding scientific study. Only as far back as 1911 scientific experiments on the absorbing of penetrating gamma rays from radium in the air led a Dr. V. F. Hess to suspect that not all the ionization in air was due to this alone. Experiments later with balloons developed the right conclusion, that there was some extremely powerful radiation coming from above; there were cosmic rays. With the speed of light the cosmic rays are carried along through earth’s atmosphere and finally hit the earth with still enough energy to penetrate and be measurable to a depth of two hundred feet underground. Cosmic rays reach an energy of many billions of electron volts. The sun of our solar system plays its part in these cosmic rays.

23

It has been observed that there has been an intensifying of cosmic ray showers during what appear to be patches of something on the face of the sun. What? Patches of darkness, to us. Sunspots, we call them. They are in actuality great flares of energy on the surface of the sun. In December, 1957, during the International Geophysical Year, it was reported that "in recent months" the sun had co-operated with the scientific studies being made. How? By "displaying what is regarded here as the greatest number of flares in its recorded history. . . . In recent months the sun has been at the peak of its eleven-year sunspot cycle. This has produced an unusual number of flares. These are thought to spray out particles, which strike the earth’s atmosphere a day or two later and cause magnetic storms and other phenomena." The sunspot activity was reported as having "disrupted radio and television waves." Studies have shown that, accompanying a solar flare, there is a sudden increase of cosmic radiation and radio fade-outs. About a day after the appearance of the flare a magnetic storm is felt all over the world. During the period of greatest cosmic ray intensity some areas of the earth are almost completely blacked out with respect to radio communication. Lead-encased cables for communication and for transmitting power have also been burned completely through, and unexposed X-ray film has been rendered useless.

24

What is the source of these cosmic rays? Not the stars. It has been scientifically established that the total energy carried by all cosmic ray particles is much more than all the energy ever emitted by stars. Cosmic rays seem to come from all directions with such great energies that scientists have not arrived at any satisfying explanation of their origin. Those of highest energy evidently come from beyond our Milky Way.

25

Studies have been made of the effect of cosmic rays on living cells in animal bodies, particularly with respect to disorders of the mind. What effect do they have or will they have on the way men behave here on earth? Certainly the Creator of cosmic rays, Jehovah God, could use these to affect the minds of his enemies, including the king of the north and the king of the south, and could drive them to mutual slaughter: "every man’s sword shall be against his brother." (Ezek. 38:21, AS) In this prophecy God warns that he will also use other natural forces that are at his disposal, possibly a rain of antimatter that has the property of annihilating any material thing that it meets. He warns all scoffers that he will do an ‘unusual work.’—Isa. 28:21.

34

Is this one of the reasons they changed the Song Book?

by Gill in

TheListener

Per the WTS we don't have souls but we are a soul.

The only explanation I've heard for Matt. 10:28 is that here the word "soul" doesn't mean a separate piece of us apart from the body but the promise of everlasting life.

There doesn't seem to be any scriptural backup for that stance but I've never seen anyone question it at the KH before.

That scripture bugged me as a zealous dub and I hated singing that part of the that song.

38

Bethelite at hall dedication, system may not last until "Deliverance Conv."

by daystar in

through various contacts, i heard this was said by a good bethelite at a local hall dedication.

(i won't quote what was said... i don't want to give away my source.).

plans are being made to attend the deliverance convention in july.

TheListener

Elsewhere, I absolutely loved your post. I don't know if it was a typo or intentional, but either way I love it:

No wonder they are loosing so many people... the WTS has absolutely NOTHING to offer anyone

They are indeed "loosing" people every day. Per Merriam-Webster loose means: "release, untie, detach"

Through their (the WTS) rigid actions they are causing the release and detachment of their membership.

32

Judah Ben Schroeder

by startingover in

jw
friends

not too long ago this thread was started: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/108750/1894427/post.ashx#1894427.

it started me thinking about what it must have been like for him being raised as a gb member's only child at bethel.

now i had a father that was at the forefront of the society's activites, and i know about some of the "perks" that come with that.

TheListener

"I am Judah Ben"

"No, I am Judah Ben"

Will the real Judah Ben Schroeder please stand up!

-ok I can't turn the red off now.

This post may not fit in with this thread completely, but when I thought the above it made me laugh to myself.

32

Judah Ben Schroeder

by startingover in

jw
friends

not too long ago this thread was started: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/108750/1894427/post.ashx#1894427.

it started me thinking about what it must have been like for him being raised as a gb member's only child at bethel.

now i had a father that was at the forefront of the society's activites, and i know about some of the "perks" that come with that.

TheListener

Per the 1988 WT he didn't get married until 1986. He was born in 1958.

Also, in the 1988 WT it says he left Bethel with his wife to pioneer in Michigan. But, I noticed when googling his name he was one of the WT reps. in 1998,1999 dealing with the Russian court cases. He must have went back to bethel after pioneering in MI.

Perhaps he is future royalty.