Posts by TheListener

posted

36
"These also I must bring..."John 10:16
by AuldSoul in
1. watchtower
2. bible
an invitation to any jws, ex-jws, faders, lurkers or readers: please wreck this if you can.

i trying to tackle a foundation doctrine of jws as simply as i possibly can.

if anyone has a way to further simplify this, please offer suggestions.. john 10:16"and i have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also i must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.".
TheListener

MJ,
It seems to me that the WTS article you quoted is arguing from a negative position. (i think?)
They are assuming that God being with his people means he would have to be on earth as a fleshly being. Wouldn't it fit more into the scriptures many have quoted on this thread that his walking with his people would occur in a spiritual setting, free from the bondage to our physical body? Wasn't it Paul who discussed being free from our physical bodies to be with Christ and God?
I have often wondered about this:
As a dub I always read the OT scriptures that discussed the paradise earth. I always applied those scriptures to the future of mankind. The reason I recall was that the promised land did not fulfill those prophecies so they must still have a future fulfillment.
I never thought of this as a dub but I have since. Why couldn't those scriptures have a spiritual fulfillment? Why must it be physical for physical. Why couldn't it be physical pointing to the better, more perfect, spiritual?
There must be examples in the OT of prophecies which used physical things to discuss spiritual things. The Holy and Most Holy comes to mind, as do the sacrifices. I'm sure there are more.
10
Judicial committees - Scriptural basis?
by Zico in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
i just found an interesting statement in a watchtower article that is going to be studied soon.

although not the theme of the watchtower (which is why we should attend their meetings) i wondered if this was a subtle attempt to make a response to the argument that there is no scriptural basis for judicial committee meetings.. .

november 1st 2006 watchtower, pg 28, para 5.
TheListener

I agree with you Vitty.
However, my understanding of the first century congregations is that they were intended to be small close knit groups where you would truly receive love and tender compassion. When you're close with someone for a time (times and half a time; hahahahaha) you learn the good, bad and the ugly about them. The christian congregations would have needed to be an accepting place where you weren't treated like crap for your warts. Or, it was a different time and people were different and there was much less concern over privacy.
There is a WT article from the past where they state that just because there isn't biblical precedent for something doesn't mean they can't do it. The governing body is Christ's representative on earth and are over the earthly things, thus they can make decisions and manage Christ's belongings in their own way. If someone could find that quote it may be of use to some here. It was made specifically regarding door to door witnessing.
29
2 Pet. 3:10 "earth and the works in it will be discovered"?? or burned up?
by M.J. in
1. watchtower
2. bible
here's the nwt rendering of the verse:.

(2 peter 3:10) 10 yet jehovahs day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a hissing noise, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be discovered.. other translations say the earth will "burn up".. nkj: but the day of the lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.. ylt: and it will come -- the day of the lord -- as a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up.. same goes for every other translation i've found.. the word in question, katakaio according to the lexicons i've seen only point to the meaning of: burn & consume by fire.. where did the nwt get "discovered" from?.
TheListener

MJ, Metzger's book is excellent. PM me if you would like any particular scripture looked up to see what the varaiants are (if any).
29
2 Pet. 3:10 "earth and the works in it will be discovered"?? or burned up?
by M.J. in
1. watchtower
2. bible
here's the nwt rendering of the verse:.

(2 peter 3:10) 10 yet jehovahs day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a hissing noise, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be discovered.. other translations say the earth will "burn up".. nkj: but the day of the lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.. ylt: and it will come -- the day of the lord -- as a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up.. same goes for every other translation i've found.. the word in question, katakaio according to the lexicons i've seen only point to the meaning of: burn & consume by fire.. where did the nwt get "discovered" from?.
TheListener

ok it's really bugging me that the web.ovc.edu stuff won't paste in. It is good information on this subject with exactly which manuscripts use which word and it discusses the most likely textual history of the verse.
29
2 Pet. 3:10 "earth and the works in it will be discovered"?? or burned up?
by M.J. in
1. watchtower
2. bible
here's the nwt rendering of the verse:.

(2 peter 3:10) 10 yet jehovahs day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a hissing noise, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be discovered.. other translations say the earth will "burn up".. nkj: but the day of the lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.. ylt: and it will come -- the day of the lord -- as a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up.. same goes for every other translation i've found.. the word in question, katakaio according to the lexicons i've seen only point to the meaning of: burn & consume by fire.. where did the nwt get "discovered" from?.
TheListener

net.bible.org:
8 tc One of the most difficult textual problems in the NT is found in v. 10. The reading e??e??seta? ( Jeureqhsetai ), which enjoys by far the best support ( ? B K P 0156 vid 323 1241 1739 txt pc) is nevertheless so difficult a reading that many scholars regard it as nonsensical. (NA 27 lists five conjectures by scholars, from Hort to Mayor, in this text.) As R. Bauckham has pointed out, solutions to the problem are of three sorts: (1) conjectural emendation (which normally speaks more of the ingenuity of the scholar who makes the proposal than of the truth of the conjecture, e.g., changing one letter in the previous word, ???a [ erga ] becomes ???a [ arga ] with the meaning, “the earth and the things in it will be found useless”); (2) adoption of one of several variant readings (all of which, however, are easier than this one and simply cannot explain how this reading arose, e.g., the reading of Ì 72 which adds ???µe?a [ luomena ] to the verb – a reading suggested no doubt by the threefold occurrence of this verb in the surrounding verses: “the earth and its works will be found dissolved”; or the simplest variant, the reading of the Sahidic mss , ??? [ ouc ] preceding ???e??seta? – “will not be found”); or (3) interpretive gymnastics which regards the text as settled but has to do some manipulation to its normal meaning. Bauckham puts forth an excellent case that the third option is to be preferred and that the meaning of the term is virtually the equivalent of “will be disclosed,” “will be manifested.” (That this meaning is not readily apparent may in fact have been the reason for so many variants and conjectures.) Thus, the force of the clause is that “the earth and the works [done by men] in it will be stripped bare [before God].” In addition, the unusualness of the expression is certainly in keeping with the author’s style throughout this little book. Hence, what looks to be suspect because of its abnormalities, upon closer inspection is actually in keeping with the author’s stylistic idiosyncrasies. The meaning of the text then is that all but the earth and men’s works will be destroyed. Everything will be removed so that humanity will stand naked before God. Textually, then, on both external and internal grounds, e??e??seta? commends itself as the preferred reading.
29
2 Pet. 3:10 "earth and the works in it will be discovered"?? or burned up?
by M.J. in
1. watchtower
2. bible
here's the nwt rendering of the verse:.

(2 peter 3:10) 10 yet jehovahs day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a hissing noise, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be discovered.. other translations say the earth will "burn up".. nkj: but the day of the lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.. ylt: and it will come -- the day of the lord -- as a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up.. same goes for every other translation i've found.. the word in question, katakaio according to the lexicons i've seen only point to the meaning of: burn & consume by fire.. where did the nwt get "discovered" from?.
TheListener

ok I can't seem to post the information. Here is the link:
http://web.ovc.edu/terry/tc/lay272pt.htm
It seems that the WTS may be correct.
29
2 Pet. 3:10 "earth and the works in it will be discovered"?? or burned up?
by M.J. in
1. watchtower
2. bible
here's the nwt rendering of the verse:.

(2 peter 3:10) 10 yet jehovahs day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a hissing noise, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be discovered.. other translations say the earth will "burn up".. nkj: but the day of the lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.. ylt: and it will come -- the day of the lord -- as a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up.. same goes for every other translation i've found.. the word in question, katakaio according to the lexicons i've seen only point to the meaning of: burn & consume by fire.. where did the nwt get "discovered" from?.
TheListener

and this from web.ovc.edu
29
2 Pet. 3:10 "earth and the works in it will be discovered"?? or burned up?
by M.J. in
1. watchtower
2. bible
here's the nwt rendering of the verse:.

(2 peter 3:10) 10 yet jehovahs day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a hissing noise, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be discovered.. other translations say the earth will "burn up".. nkj: but the day of the lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.. ylt: and it will come -- the day of the lord -- as a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up.. same goes for every other translation i've found.. the word in question, katakaio according to the lexicons i've seen only point to the meaning of: burn & consume by fire.. where did the nwt get "discovered" from?.
TheListener

and this from web.ovc.edu
29
2 Pet. 3:10 "earth and the works in it will be discovered"?? or burned up?
by M.J. in
1. watchtower
2. bible
here's the nwt rendering of the verse:.

(2 peter 3:10) 10 yet jehovahs day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a hissing noise, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be discovered.. other translations say the earth will "burn up".. nkj: but the day of the lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.. ylt: and it will come -- the day of the lord -- as a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up.. same goes for every other translation i've found.. the word in question, katakaio according to the lexicons i've seen only point to the meaning of: burn & consume by fire.. where did the nwt get "discovered" from?.
TheListener

I found this in the meantime from propadeutic.com:
2 Peter 3:10 - The text is confused in the last word of the verse. In some mss. the earth and its works will be burned up. In one they will melt. In some they are destroyed. In some they will not be found. In some they will be found. In one they will be found destroyed. The reading found seems most able to explain the rise of the others, and is meaningful if understood as exposed, laid bare, or possibly found deserving of judgment. Most translations have burned up, and AAT and William have the similar melt. Lamsa is alone in choosing not found. Among those choosing found are NWT, NIV, NAB, NRSV, REB, CEV, GW, NLT1, ISV, NET, ESV, TNIV, MSG, HCSB, and NLT2. GNT has the unlikely reading vanish (similar Moffatt), and here the NIrV is paraphrased beyond recognitionï¿½perhaps to avoid the question altogether.