TheListener

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Posts by TheListener

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  56

  Birthdays—Simple Deconstruction of the JW Rationale

  by AuldSoul in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  to deconstruct the jw rationale surrounding birthdays, a few simple guidelines should be followed.. (1): don't waste any energy trying to convince a jw that birthdays are not pagan, if they suggest that, readily agree.

  whether or not the celebrations are pagan turns out to be a non-issue that distracts from the main point.. (2): stay focused on the fact that jws disfellowship people for celebrating birthdays.. (3): stress the point that there should always be clear scriptural reason for disfellowshipping someone.

  ask them often throughout the discussion whether this is the case, get them to reinforce this need to themselves.. (4): remember, the first goal is deconstructing their rationale, not giving them a new rationale, not convincing them that celebrating birthdays is a good thing.. once you have these well in mind, the deconstruction can begin.. jw rationale, in brief:.

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  TheListener

  From New Advent Encyclopedia:

  So also in the Hieronymian Martyrologium (c. 590), besides the constantly recurring natale applied to the festivals of martyrs we have, e.g. on 2 August, In antiochia natalis reliquiarum Stephani protomartyris et diac. None the less a certain stress was often laid in Christiansermons and in mortuary inscriptions upon the idea that the day of a man's death was his birthday to a new life. Thus St. Ambrose (Serm. 57, de Depos. St. Eusebii) declares that "the day of our burial is calledour birthday (natalis), because, being set free from the prison of our crimes, we are born to the liberty of the Saviour", and he goes on "wherefore this day is observed as a great celebration, for it is in truth a festival of the highest order to be dead to our vices and to live to righteousness alone." And we find such inscriptions as the following

  PARENTE FILIO MERCURIO FECE
  RUNT QUI VIXIT ANN V ET MENSES VIII
  NATUS IN PACE ID FEBR

  Where "natus in pace" clearly refers to eternal rest. So again Origen had evidently some similar thought before him when he insists that "of all the holy people in the Scriptures, no one is recorded to have kept a feast or held a great banquet on his birthday. It is only sinners (like Pharaoh and Herod) who make great rejoicings over the day on which they were born into this world below" (Origen, in Levit., Hom. VIII, in Migne P.G., XII, 495). Naturally a certain amount of confusion resulted from this use of the same word natalis sometimes to signify natural birth, sometimes the passage to a better life. The former was consequently often distinguished as natale genuinum, natale de nativitate, the latter as natale passionis or de passione, sometimes abbreviated as N.P.

  http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10709a.htm
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  56

  Birthdays—Simple Deconstruction of the JW Rationale

  by AuldSoul in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  to deconstruct the jw rationale surrounding birthdays, a few simple guidelines should be followed.. (1): don't waste any energy trying to convince a jw that birthdays are not pagan, if they suggest that, readily agree.

  whether or not the celebrations are pagan turns out to be a non-issue that distracts from the main point.. (2): stay focused on the fact that jws disfellowship people for celebrating birthdays.. (3): stress the point that there should always be clear scriptural reason for disfellowshipping someone.

  ask them often throughout the discussion whether this is the case, get them to reinforce this need to themselves.. (4): remember, the first goal is deconstructing their rationale, not giving them a new rationale, not convincing them that celebrating birthdays is a good thing.. once you have these well in mind, the deconstruction can begin.. jw rationale, in brief:.

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  TheListener

  The Origen quote is found in the new kids book "listening to the great teacher" or something like that. It came out a few years ago.

  Anyway, you can look the quote up on the catholic encyclopedia to find out the actual context. It has to do with celebrating our life on earth instead of celebrating the day of our death and we inherit our heavenly reward. It doesn't have to do with christians not celebrating their birthdays due to paganism.

  If I'm mistaken on this please post it to this thread.
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  8

  Where Are Our Elders.....?

  by Seeker4 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  ....here on jwd?

  as in, we have tons of younger to 50 year olds, but only a handful of folks in the 70-plus category, from what i can tell.

  so, is it just that older folks aren't on-line or computer savvy?

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  TheListener

  I know several in their 60s who have left but they have no interest in online discussions. I've tried to explain that helping others can be reason enough. They agree, yet they still do not post.
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  56

  Birthdays—Simple Deconstruction of the JW Rationale

  by AuldSoul in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  to deconstruct the jw rationale surrounding birthdays, a few simple guidelines should be followed.. (1): don't waste any energy trying to convince a jw that birthdays are not pagan, if they suggest that, readily agree.

  whether or not the celebrations are pagan turns out to be a non-issue that distracts from the main point.. (2): stay focused on the fact that jws disfellowship people for celebrating birthdays.. (3): stress the point that there should always be clear scriptural reason for disfellowshipping someone.

  ask them often throughout the discussion whether this is the case, get them to reinforce this need to themselves.. (4): remember, the first goal is deconstructing their rationale, not giving them a new rationale, not convincing them that celebrating birthdays is a good thing.. once you have these well in mind, the deconstruction can begin.. jw rationale, in brief:.

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  TheListener

  erandir,

  My wife is still in the organization as well. The reasoning presented must be simple and clear to be of real use. My spouse will not listen to long winded explanations about why something is ok to do. I've been fairly successful in some areas and fantastically unsuccessful in others. Guess that's life.

  This is an excellent thread and is the type that will really help a newbie and someone with family still in the org.

  Good luck erandir
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  15

  MyJWSpace Update 7/24

  by WTWizard in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  out of curiosity, i checked out the myjwspace site mentioned in an earlier thread to see if it was growing.

  as of now, there are 64 members on the whole site, and a grand total of (all this) one post on the whole forum!

  of course, without joining, there is no way to read those posts to cut and paste segments of it here to tear them apart.. they have a chat room where they claim all the people are jws, the topics are safe, and they can be themselves (as dull and preprogrammed as they can get).

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  TheListener

  I say let them congregate. They are willfully going against Mother's advice and nothing good can come from them hanging out with each other without the elders watchful eyes upon them.
• 
  46

  You Are Much Too Harsh About The Watchtower Society

  by The wanderer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  <!-- .style1 { font-family: arial; font-size: 18px; } .style2 { font-family: verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; } .style3 {color: #ff0000} .style4 {font-family: verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: italic; } --> you are much too harsh about the watchtower societysince you were, little we did our best to raise you.

  you always received good.

  grades in school; we always did our best to feed, clothe and give you every-.

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  TheListener

  Perhaps a simple response is best:

  "I love you too mom and dad."
• 
  56

  Birthdays—Simple Deconstruction of the JW Rationale

  by AuldSoul in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  to deconstruct the jw rationale surrounding birthdays, a few simple guidelines should be followed.. (1): don't waste any energy trying to convince a jw that birthdays are not pagan, if they suggest that, readily agree.

  whether or not the celebrations are pagan turns out to be a non-issue that distracts from the main point.. (2): stay focused on the fact that jws disfellowship people for celebrating birthdays.. (3): stress the point that there should always be clear scriptural reason for disfellowshipping someone.

  ask them often throughout the discussion whether this is the case, get them to reinforce this need to themselves.. (4): remember, the first goal is deconstructing their rationale, not giving them a new rationale, not convincing them that celebrating birthdays is a good thing.. once you have these well in mind, the deconstruction can begin.. jw rationale, in brief:.

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  TheListener

  erandir,

  My response isn't scriptural but more of a common sense type of thing.

  I posted this earlier in the thread:

  at a wedding anniversary party or between a couple - who gets the gifts and praise. Who gets lauded with memories from the past and questions about how they made it all those years together. who is called a great example for all to follow. THE COUPLE!! not god. final question: who gets the gifts?

  the same thing is true of baby showers. who gets the gifts. who sits in front of everyone opening the gifts and passing them around and thanking them for their generosity. THE COUPLE!! not god. final question: who gets the gifts?

  Of course, others will probably have a more logical or scriptural discussion but that is my 2 cents.
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  59

  WT + Awake Update - restrictions

  by stillajwexelder in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  study edition of the wt will be restricted - it will be as per km

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  TheListener

  2 things:

  1. This will make it easier to eventually roll the witness only WT into the KM thus creating money savings.

  2. They're slowly headed toward focusing on tractwork and special campaigns in the field ministry.
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  17

  My long story at least Part 1

  by pmouse in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  specifically christmas appears to be the one holiday to which all others compare.

  we either joyfully or sadly recall past christmas holidays.

  as i recall, they were controversial in our family even before i was born.. im going to go back a couple of generations in my story to give you a bit of background.

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  TheListener

  I have children. Thank you for sharing. The feelings you've shared will help many of us heal.

  I will definitely keep your deep fear of dying at Armageddon for doing something wrong in the forefront of my mind and help me keep my children from developing that fear (due to their mother being a witness).
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  23

  Underground Lurker....Coming up for air.....

  by Bourne in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i have been a lurker for the last year...finally got the courage to post.

  i guess you could say that i have successfully completed a "fade", although that was not my initial intent.

  due to my being in an "unscriptural" separation for a number of months, (that, combined with my paranoia, hence, the alias) i have been forced to go underground.

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  TheListener

  Hi Bourne. I am glad you stopped lurking and started posting.

  I liked your first post. You have insight and you are articulate.

  It's tough to understand all the feelings and emotions a marital separation (eventual divorce?) may bring but I remember someone telling me that many major changes in life start with one event. Perhaps your marital problems, regardless of how they end, will be the start of many many good things for you.

  Good luck.