Posts by TheListener

6

Grace versus Ephesians 4th & 5th Chapters

by TheListener in

18 years ago

for those who are believers in god and the bible:.

if we have god's grace and have been purchased by jesus shed blood why do we have to be careful not to do the things mentioned in ephesians and elsewhere in order to not be excluded from god's kingdom?.

for example, ephesians tells us not to tell obscene jokes, or commit immorality, etc etc for if we do we will not inherit god's kingdom.

18 years ago

TheListener 18 years ago

For those who are believers in God and the Bible:

If we have God's Grace and have been purchased by Jesus shed blood why do we have to be careful not to do the things mentioned in Ephesians and elsewhere in order to not be excluded from God's Kingdom?

For example, Ephesians tells us not to tell obscene jokes, or commit immorality, etc etc for if we do we will not inherit God's Kingdom. Yet, in Ephesians chapter 2 we are told that being saved has nothing to do with our own works but only by God's Grace.

This seems to be a question I've been struggling with for some time. And no, it's not because I want to tell obscene jokes, commit immorality, etc etc and still make it into God's kingom - you sickos. Wait, is that possible?

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69

crisis of conscience

by cyrus in

jw
friends

18 years ago

hi all ,got my copy today read 90 pages already ,so far very interesting and an eye opener rutherford comes across as a very dishonest man and a dictator.

knorr comes across as very insecure.anyway back to it .have fun and i will let you know as i read more .dan

18 years ago

TheListener 18 years ago

The Listener said,

One thing I've learned since leaving the dubs; don't judge others (unless you have jury duty, or children, or a wife, or any other family, or perhaps at work with an employee or employer, or....well I don't know but judging isn't nice).
Terry, I really didn't like the tone of your posts on this thread. I know, I know, that doesn't mean much.
Ray Franz's books gave me the courage to break free from the witnesses. That is a gift I can never repay.

Terry replied,

Don't you get it? Personal integrity consists of telling the truth even when others are made uncomfortable or you yourself are put in an awkward position.
My "tone" is clear. Nobody else points out these things because ONLY the good that Franz has done with his book is praised and all else ignored. I'm not judging him nor am I condemning him. I was answering a question raised under the discussion topic. I replied why I thought the "tone" of Crisis of Conscience was creepy.
Can we ever get to a point we tell things "like it is" without tip-toeing?

I have a couple thoughts on this. I tried to be forthright and tactful in saying that I didn't like the tone of your posts about Ray. We may disagree but I didn't beat around the bush, I was honest, forthright and clear. I thought. You may feel that you are not judging him or condeming but I feel that is exactly the tone your posts have taken. I don't feel like taking the time to copy/paste each statement you made wherein you made assumptions of Ray's possible choices and outcomes for different actions or how and what he felt like. I think that is unfair of you. Some have stated that they are disappointed that Ray wrote in support of the 607 date while knowing it was unsupportable. That is an opinion and who can say they are wrong for it? Isn't that the point of holding an opinion on a subject where feelings and emotions are involved? Was Ray wrong? right? Did the members of the dub body benefit or suffer based on Ray's decisions? The answers to these questions could be debated until time ends (if it ever does) but a conclusion could never be reached because the discussions would be based on personal feelings. It appears to me as I read your posts, and I say appears to me to indicate that I clearly may be incorrect and it may appear otherwise to someone else, that you do not agree with how Ray handled his Crisis of Conscience and all of the bits and pieces of political intrigue that went along with it. OK fair enough. I equally disagree and feel, based on my own anecdotal evidence that he did the best he could given the circumstances given - of course anecdotal evidence won't sway anyone - but it's good enough for me. AS and Terry - your discussion has taxed my dictionary and tired my brain. Please stop doing that.

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57

Governing Body Going After eBay

by Gary1914 in

jw
friends

18 years ago

hello everyone.. i don't if this has been posted before.

if it has i apologize, but maybe my version will add to what is already known.. my brother is a district overseer.

the society sometimes places conferences calls to do's, co's and other overseers, especially when it is something that they do not want to put in writing.

14 years ago

TheListener 18 years ago

Forget Ebay!

Gary, your brother is a DO and he hangs out with you?

I think you should be careful what you post.

or

I think you should sneak around his house (or wherever they are living) and bookbag and computer and copy everything you can get your hands on. Ooops. Bad idea. My bad. Sorry.

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33

i take some C.O. for a hour and half ride

by johnny cip in

jw
friends

18 years ago

(not telling where) into an hour and half conversation.

he knew his aposatate stuff.

it was heavy.

18 years ago

TheListener 18 years ago

More info CIP. We need details.

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69

crisis of conscience

by cyrus in

jw
friends

18 years ago

hi all ,got my copy today read 90 pages already ,so far very interesting and an eye opener rutherford comes across as a very dishonest man and a dictator.

knorr comes across as very insecure.anyway back to it .have fun and i will let you know as i read more .dan

18 years ago

TheListener 18 years ago

One thing I've learned since leaving the dubs; don't judge others (unless you have jury duty, or children, or a wife, or any other family, or perhaps at work with an employee or employer, or....well I don't know but judging isn't nice).

Terry, I really didn't like the tone of your posts on this thread. I know, I know, that doesn't mean much.

Ray Franz's books gave me the courage to break free from the witnesses. That is a gift I can never repay.

Link

28

Lack of gatherings means the congregation only exists in the Kingdom Hall

by truthseeker in

jw
friends

18 years ago

this is the situation with my congregation and i wonder if it is the same with yours.. as many of you know, the watchtower is not known for organising social gatherings of any kind for relaxation or enjoyment.. many of us only come into contact with witnesses while going to meetings and going out on field service.. as soon as you leave the hall, the congregation ceases to exist, in my mind anyway.. when you go back to the hall, the congregation exists, but only for the time you are there.. think about it - you spend 2 hours sitting and perhaps 10 minutes talking during each meeting.

if you have no friends in the hall that you see on a regular basis, then you feel like you're on your own until the next meeting.. .

my point is this: for those who still go but are not invited out anywhere, particularly if they are fading, do you feel that the congregation only exists in the kingdom hall?

18 years ago

TheListener 18 years ago

It's a double edged sword for the WTS.

If they encourage get togethers the likelihood of individuals doing inappropriate stuff grows AND people talk and share their feelings more openly with those they are close to - more frequent and church organized get togethers draw people together.

This is definitely an individual congregation thing. Some are loving and active and others are cold and almost anti-social.

You have to be the right person at the right KH in order to have a full social life.

BUT,

Even for those that do have full social lives none of it is organized and sanctioned by the WTS. There are no open houses (after dedication) of KH or official goody nights at bookstudy or sunday school or men's club or mother's club or anything. Why don't KH's have small playgrounds for the children - then they would have adults and children associating with each other and building each other up.

BECAUSE

When dubs get together too much and become too comfortable they may start to wake up. The more sanctioned gatherings there are that aren't completely controlled the greater chance that non-conformist thoughts would hit the group.

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25

For my hairy argument...

by Inquisitor in

18 years ago

can anyone come up with names of some famous people (dead or alive doesn't matter), respectable men (sorry ladies, but a bearded lady wouldn't help my case), who've grown beards or kept a moustache?

thank you.. inq.

18 years ago

TheListener 18 years ago

C. Everett Koop - former US Surgeon General

Paul Wolfowitz - Former Deputy Secretary of Defense (heads up World Bank or something now)

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12

Yet another email

by truthsetsonefree in

jw
friends

18 years ago

does it get more cultish than this?

satan's meeting (read even if you're busy) .

satan called a worldwide convention of demons.

18 years ago

TheListener 18 years ago

I got it too.

Link

56

My Wife Just Left Me Because of the Evil Watchtower

by rassillon in

jw
friends

18 years ago

this is very difficult to write because i am crying.

i am normally not the kind of person you will ever see cry because things don't affect me that much but this has got to be the hardest things i have ever went through.. i just got through discussing with my wife my feelings.

i guess it has been hard to hid some of the things that i have felt since i have learned that many of the wt teachings are false.

18 years ago