yesterday, the presiding overseer (elder h) read the letter from the christian congregation of jehovahs witnesses (us branch) regarding their policy on child abuse.
all scriptures were also looked up and read.. elder h is a very prepared brother.
he is a gilead graduate and served as a missionary for about 7 years in kenya before coming home because of illness.
crawdad,
You really surprise me, here I thought you might come back with some form of decent reply to some of the questions I raised, instead you chose to pick on what was obviously a sarcastic statement? Do I have to put a LOL or a :rolleyes: after something like that?
*sigh*
as an ex presiding overseer and public affairs spokesperson who is now disfellowshipped!!!
i am new to this site and have read with keen interest the many and varied topics that have been posted.
during my 9 years of presiding i encountered certain corrupt c/os for example the friends would treat them like little demy gods, hanging onto their every word, they would, on their visit influence the brothers to part with cash for privledges.
Well Martin that's not a great way to introduce yourself to the site, telling me I shouldnt be here, now is it? Then again Im noone to talk...but I think once you're here a bit you'll find that there are a few still 'in' that would bristle at a request to leave... :)
I'd prefer an option '3':
3. I left along time ago and I'm over it.
And youre right SlipnSlide, I do have *some* fond memories. Thanks for letting me share them.
yesterday, the presiding overseer (elder h) read the letter from the christian congregation of jehovahs witnesses (us branch) regarding their policy on child abuse.
all scriptures were also looked up and read.. elder h is a very prepared brother.
he is a gilead graduate and served as a missionary for about 7 years in kenya before coming home because of illness.
crawdad said:
>>i see right through you bonovox.... you want everyone to leave the gov body alone.......<<
Whew! Glad you got that one! Actually, leave WHO alone? I could really care less what they have to say, personally.
I have LONG gotten over the notion that the GB should be held to some standard of perfect infallibilty. You'd do well to come to the same realization.
yesterday, the presiding overseer (elder h) read the letter from the christian congregation of jehovahs witnesses (us branch) regarding their policy on child abuse.
all scriptures were also looked up and read.. elder h is a very prepared brother.
he is a gilead graduate and served as a missionary for about 7 years in kenya before coming home because of illness.
Hawk you've raised some interesting points here:
>>Does the Catholic church shun victims? No<<
No, but they won't shun the perps either, so I guess it evens out.
>>Does the Catholic Church expel advocates? No<<
In this day and age I think it's almost impossible to get expelled from the RCC...oh, thats right, if you remarry or use a condom..:P
>>Does the Catholic church allow child rapists to go out and knock on somebodies door with or without an untrained witness? No<<
No, they just allow them to continue to get up on the pulpit every Sunday and preach...
>>Has the WTS even admitted there is a problem in the Borg?<<
Uh, yes, they have, by very virtue of giving a talk on the matter. If there wasn't a problem, why the talks and articles some of which predated the Dateline episode? Thats not rocket science.
>>but at least the Catholics have at least gone that far.<<
No they haven't. The laity has. The clergymen in question are still lyingly denying it through their teeth.
>>Is the 2 witness rule still in effect? Yes<<
As I said, looking at that elder's speech, looks like change it coming.
>>Are witnesses encouraged to go to the police?<<
Be a living breathing thinking human being. I touched on it in another thread, to which noone responded. If someone murders someone, do you call your PO?? Give me a break. Use the brain Jehovah gave you and call the police. Does the Society offer driver's ed courses too? Why must people blindly rely for Society encouragement on every single facet of their lives?
>>No, but the Catholics are. <<
Oh, that's right, and then when they do and the entire world parks outside their gates demanding answers, they hide in their church, waiting for the dust to settle so they can run back to Rome to regroup.
BTW, I have visited SilentLambs, and along with the issue of the information having gaps and not being completely up to date (which I asked for answers in another thread), I also wonder why people are encouraged to report their experiences for simply the purpose of a survey. Why not post profiles and pictures up of the alleged perpetrators? They do it for abortionists and pedophiles elsewhere, and civil suits launched against people who run such sites have been largely unsuccessful. I personally think that would be one of THE most effective ways to blow this thing wide open and get these wolves out from admidst the sheep. Shame them and expose them to the point where they just have to leave.
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"Well the God I believe in isn't short of cash, mister!"
Bullet the Blue Sky, Rattle n Hum version
yesterday, the presiding overseer (elder h) read the letter from the christian congregation of jehovahs witnesses (us branch) regarding their policy on child abuse.
all scriptures were also looked up and read.. elder h is a very prepared brother.
he is a gilead graduate and served as a missionary for about 7 years in kenya before coming home because of illness.
Good for you Matrix. I for one have no problem believing that you remembered it long enough till you got home to write it all down. Maybe you even took notes when you realized the topic was being discussed? Hell, I can remember certain talks from 15 years ago like it was yesterday, especially one of the ones given after I was reproved. Not inconceivable at all.
All you ex-s, of which I am also one, one thing I don't get is, just what exactly do you want? The whole Society to just implode and disband completely? Don't you think that's kinda unrealistic? Have you ever considered that maybe the change is gonna have to come from within, and that even that change will take time? SOunds to me like at least these elders have come further than the RCC will ever come. Theyre still denying it even happens!
As far as I can see, there isn't a religion on this whole f-ing planet that is free from the sickly scourge of child abuse. Hell, in some countries it's state-sanctioned for cripe's sake. Do you spend as much time deconstructing them?
Yah yah JWs claim to be the one true religion blah blah but so what? So does the entire non-christian world. Balanced educated people see thru that and realize that there is imperfection and serious problems in every faith, because they're all run by IMPERFECT PEOPLE!
Sounds to me like this body of elders has sat down and developed a zero tolerance policy for child abuse. Copy the speech, take it to your local elders and demand that they implement similar policies.
As for the person who made the comment that elders are ignoring DNA evidence that has resulted in criminal convictions, you'd better substantiate that.
And finally, not to be callous to the real victims, the kids, but if you as a parent run to the elders first when your kid tells you that they've been molested by your husband, brother, local ms, elder, whatever, YOU ARE A COMPLETE FOOL. Use your head and go to the police and report the CRIME. Dont point to the Watchtower article way back when that didnt render the same advice, I read it too and they didnt tell you not to, did they? I said it in another thread, it'll be pretty hard for someone to maintain their standing in the congregation when they are ROTTING IN A JAIL CELL!!!
And finally, and ultimately, if someone IS convicted, serves their jail sentence and attends the rehabilitative counselling that is usually a part of the conditions of their release, is reproved and DOES repent, just who are you to say that they can't worship God again? I think even in society at large we still believe in the concept of rehabilitation and forgiveness, do we not??
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"Well the God I believe in isn't short of cash, mister!"
Bullet the Blue Sky, Rattle n Hum version
as an ex presiding overseer and public affairs spokesperson who is now disfellowshipped!!!
i am new to this site and have read with keen interest the many and varied topics that have been posted.
during my 9 years of presiding i encountered certain corrupt c/os for example the friends would treat them like little demy gods, hanging onto their every word, they would, on their visit influence the brothers to part with cash for privledges.
I'm glad you are awaiting my reply, but I hate to tell ya that it's going to be the voice of the 'other side'.
My step-father served as an elder for all of the 5 years I lived with him and my mother, and on a few occasions we entertained Circuit Overseers in our house for the week they stayed in our congregation. Let me just add that we were not well off financially, in fact, we were just above the poverty line for most Canadian families. My dad worked at a factory and my mom had MCS and was unable to work, so she did alot of phone witnessing from home.
We had absolutely no money to give a CO, we (and I say we, because unline some of the other aspects of the faith I disliked I usually truly looked forward to these visits) just wanted to extend our hospitality to our brother and made sacrifices to do so. We had a modest house with a den that could be used as a bedroom so they usually stayed in fairly simple surroundings. Meals were never lavish affairs, but we had a great time with them all the same. I was always especially interested in hearing stories from far away places, stories that did not necessarily revolve exclusively around preaching, but usually meandered into explorations of other's cultures and countries (some had been missionaries in Africa and South America). Living in a whiter-than-wonderbread small town, I would eat this stuff up gleefully.
After dinner my mom would sometimes get out her acoustic and we'd sing and stuff, or sometimes the CO would have slides from other places and we'd get the popcorn out and have a slideshow. On a few occasions my younger sisters and I put on little bible skits for them, and they always found those so special. I remember thinking quite proudly how good we were at drama productions.
The CO's I knew never drove fancy leased vehicles, usually 5-10 year old models that were well maintained. I never questioned that as, hell, you wouldn't want to break down somewhere in the rural areas we lived in, especially with the schedules they maintained. I recall him and his wife always being of fairly simple tastes, which usually fit in quite well with our very simple lifestyle.
What did we get in return? Not much, really, other than friendship and hearing experiences. My dad was never really favored for extra 'positions' or privileges, but he did get assigned to alot of things because he had this sincerely quiet and compassionate nature that drew people to him (my mom is the fanatic, but thats another story altogether). I can definately say that no money ever exchanged hands, cause we never had any. Although we did those skits, we were never selected to participate in dramas at assemblies, but looking back, maybe it was because the CO saw that we were already quite talented in that regard and so maybe he wanted to cultivate some abilities in others? Or maybe it wasnt favoritism that he used to pick people?
I don't really know, but I do know that making a blanket statement about all CO's is just not right. The couple I knew personally were decent simple people, as far as I knew.
Just another perspective.
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"Well the God I believe in isn't short of cash, mister!"
Bullet the Blue Sky, Rattle n Hum version
attorney at law.
6-6-02. draffenville congregation of jehovahs witnesses.
attn: george bandarra .
Well boys and girls, before you jump all over Matrix, I'll take some fire too. I've dug around on this Bowens issue abit, and, if you can conclusively prove me wrong, then fine, I'll listen. But there seems to be a few gaps in the whole saga...
Some things I've noted:
- in his May 5 letter (posted on silentlambs site, which I might add isnt up to date if you believe everything in the most recent letter as posted here..if its such and important issue, whats up with that?) he mentioned he was having surgery, and suggested May 24. I so far have seen no response letter from the JC agreeing or confirming this date. Maybe there is one, can we see it?
- if there wasn't one, which I'm not saying is right, did it make sense for him to round up his witnesses at what he calls considerable expense and effort to come to a meeting that noone was going to be at anyways?
- why hasn't the letter that was dropped on a chair in his backyard been posted up here? In all fairness I'd like to read what it says.
- I'd also like to see these alleged emails from Witnesses threatening his life. As anything can be forged, you're also going to have to post up some IP info with some tracing proof. I think it also stands to reason that since threatening death is a criminal offense, you should be able to provide us with copies of any correspondence you've had from the authorities on the matter.
Look, Im not a witness, havent been one for over 12 years, I just think that if we're REALLY gonna blow this thing wide open, then EVERYTHING should be laid out on the table.
A letter (and I might add a wildly meandering one that hardly seems characteristic of most experienced professional counsels) from a laywer is hardly a statement of fact, let's try to remember that.
And PS: try to resist the urge to childishly flame me for asking hard questions, questions that I would equally ask of any witness if I had the proof Im asking for.
And dont tell me 'you dont know what a JC is all about'..Ive been around the block a few times, believe me.
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"Well the God I believe in isn't short of cash, mister!"
Bullet the Blue Sky, Rattle n Hum version
we always hear the muslims such as osama bin laden, prayed for september 11, and always say more destruction will come to america and jews "god willing" but god is not willing, so besides for the devil, why does their prayers come true for them?
I think Elsewhere and Flip have it bang on. They don't wait on their God to answer their prayers, they effect it themselves.
Hell, I could pray to God that he take out my pesky neighbour who keeps spraying his grass clippings on my driveway, but if I one day go out and shoot him three times in the chest, can I realistically say that He has answered my prayers?
These nutbars make the claim that "Allah answered our prayers" to keep their rank and file in line...now what does that remind ya of?? LOL..that was always something I kinda found funny, when they'd say stuff like: 'Jehovah answered our prayers to build this Hall' or whatever - cmon! No he didn't, well not directly, as far as I could see - somebody got up on the platform and made a pitch for donations for the new hall, people gave money, they paid for the land and building materials, word went out that a Hall was being built, and people showed up and pitched in. Not like I doubt that His spirit helped out, but I think people don't give our own human spirit enough credit sometimes. Sometimes people do things just cause they're good people, I would like to believe.
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"Religion is what you're left with when God leaves the room"
Bono
i'm new and have been browsing some of the posts and am surprised to find active witnesses here, pissing and moaning about this board and how other posters are mean to them, cursing at them, etc.
well i'm just curious as to why an active member of the wtbts would want to fraternize with a whole lotta ex-jw's.
i mean, that's why i came here, to find other exiles like myself.
You cant move on and get over the bullshit if you keep wallowing in it. I could really care less what the bad ones do, there ARE good Witnesses out there, I still talk to them. Do you think I'm lying for their benefit? I have absolutely no reason to, if anyone was 'stepped on' by the baddies, I sure was. Dont tell me about the lukewarm thing, smart people can read a magazine or listen to a talk and then make a balanced private decision on how they are going to make personal application of it in their own lives.
Maybe the difference for me is that I just left, because I knew I wasnt interested any longer in living up to all the 'rules'. Plus I felt I was way smarter than half the uneducated people who would plod methodically thru the studies like it was a real brain teaser for them, very frustrating for someone who thinks a mile a second and gets bored easy. It was that simple for me. Just like being a member of any other organization in this world. Most have a charter, and by joining you agree to follow it. Hell, if you rent an apartment you sign a lease that says you agree to follow the rules of the building. If you deliberately flaunt them, you get notified to straighten up, and then if you refuse you ultimately get kicked out. Whats so hard to understand about that?
Get over the bitterness. Your life will improve 100% because of it. I watched my bitterly apostate father ruin his life over it, and it was only when he got a real life that didnt involve trash talking the witnesses at his every opportunity that he became a real human being again.
Call me a 'witness-apologist' if you'd like, Ive been called way worse, and for someone who's been 'out' for over 12 years it'll just roll right off my back, thanks very much.
I just thought of a song that has helped thru many a dark moment, kinda follows thru on my 'let it go' idea. It's called "Bad", by U2, found on the Unforgettable Fire LP. It's originally about heroin addiction but as with most of their songs has a unique ambiguity that allows the listener to embrace it no matter what their personal demon. Here are the lyrics, take a listen it's a very moving tune:
"If you twist and turn away
If you tear yourself in two again
If I could, yes I would
If I could, I would let it go.
Surrender, dislocate.
If I could throw this lifeless
Lifeline to the wind.
Leave this heart of clay,
See you walk, walk away,
Into the night.
And through the rain.
Into the half-light,
And through the flame.
If I could through myself,
set your spirit free.
I'd lead your heart away,
See you break, break away
Into the light.
And to the day.
To let it go,
And so to fade away.
To let it go,
And so fade away.
I'm wide awake.
I'm wide awake.
I'm not sleeping.
Oh, no, no.
If you should ask then maybe
They'd tell you what I would say.
True colors fly in blue and black,
Bruised silken skies and burning flak
Colors crash, collide in blood shot eyes.
If I could, you know I would.
If I could, I would let it go.
This desparation.
Dislocation.
Separation.
Condemnation.
Revelation.
In temptation.
Isolation.
Desolation.
Let it go,
And so to fade away.
To let it go,
And so fade away.
Oh, no
I'm wide awake.
I'm wide awake.
I'm not sleeping.
Oh, no no"
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"Well the God I believe in isn't short of cash, mister!"
Bullet the Blue Sky, Rattle n Hum version
Bullet the Blue Sky, Rattle n Hum version
what do you guys think of a wonderland trip this year??
could be fun.
booya.
WOw, some TO people up in here!! I would probably know ya if we're about the same age...in my heydey I had quite the rep in the GTA circles...threw all the best parties, etc..LOL...guess thats why I never fit in..LOL..
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"Well the God I believe in isn't short of cash, mister!"
Bullet the Blue Sky, Rattle n Hum version
