Posts by bonovox

99

Dateline discussed openly in our congregation

by TheMatrix in

jw
friends

yesterday, the presiding overseer (elder h) read the letter from the christian congregation of jehovahs witnesses (us branch) regarding their policy on child abuse.

all scriptures were also looked up and read.. elder h is a very prepared brother.

he is a gilead graduate and served as a missionary for about 7 years in kenya before coming home because of illness.

bonovox

Youre right Dutchie, it isnt the best of comparisons, I just was trying to highlight the whole criminal aspect of it. To me a criminal activity should be reported, bottom line.

We are in complete agreement about the reporting and the fact that the society should not be playing judge and jury in criminal matters. For a brief moment I forgot about the disparity between states in that regard. I guess that makes a good case for lobbying govt to make child abuse a capital or federal crime (my scant knowledge of US law leads me to assume that it would correct this, no?).

I personally found the gb position that in the states where reporting wasn't legally demanded it may not be done to be completely abhorrent. I agree that any religion should be adhering to a much higher moral code than simply what the bare minimum secular law demands. Those bleeding heart idiot judges up here in BC also ruled that it was ok to possess child porn too, frickin sickos, and the way the world seems to be headed the laws are only going to get worse.

99

Dateline discussed openly in our congregation

by TheMatrix in

jw
friends

yesterday, the presiding overseer (elder h) read the letter from the christian congregation of jehovahs witnesses (us branch) regarding their policy on child abuse.

all scriptures were also looked up and read.. elder h is a very prepared brother.

he is a gilead graduate and served as a missionary for about 7 years in kenya before coming home because of illness.

bonovox

crawdad,

Start answering some hard questions and stop throwing up semantical arguments in some vain attempt to gloss over your own weak penchant for personal barbs, ok?

Stop changing the subject line, its disrespectful.

Stop accusing me of being sent by the governing body, its so pathetically weak its not even funny.

Start engaging as I am with others on this thread in an intelligent reasoned fashion, or leave me alone.

Start realizing, that, unlike you, I CAN be reasoned with and such discussion will sometimes (perish the thought) cause me to see new perspectives and modify my own opinions somewhat as a result. Its called l-e-a-r-n-i-n-g f-r-o-m o-t-h-e-r-s.

And finally, please start working on your penmanship. You may think it cute but it's childishly annoying.

99

Dateline discussed openly in our congregation

by TheMatrix in

jw
friends

yesterday, the presiding overseer (elder h) read the letter from the christian congregation of jehovahs witnesses (us branch) regarding their policy on child abuse.

all scriptures were also looked up and read.. elder h is a very prepared brother.

he is a gilead graduate and served as a missionary for about 7 years in kenya before coming home because of illness.

bonovox

Dutchie I vowed I was gonna shut up for a bit but...

The 'dumb rank and file' approach, while a sad reality, is dangerously close to the whole 'my leader told me to' defense. Just to go back to the original example of murder, I can't see the law accepting as a defense if you witnessed a murder and did nothing that your religion told you that without another witness your word would be invalid or to run to your leaders first and let them straighten it out - they'd charge you with being an accomplice, an accessory after the fact or at bare minimum obstructing justice.

Its no secret that people who are either unable or unwilling to think for themselves are drawn in such large numbers to religions, its a well recognized psychological phenomenon. Its just really saddening, and I guess I have to say that for the sake of those people, the Society just needs to throw in the towel and stop trying to play judge and juror with criminal matters and just outright say 'Lookit - if someone commits a criminal offense against you or your family, while of course we want to know about it, don't run to us first. Call the police.' The second change is that, returning to the principle of firmly establishing a matter, once the law (which we are told we should live under, right?) has established that someone is guilty of a criminal act, they should not be allowed to retain their standing, regardless if only one person knew about it first or not. DNA, doctor's reports, pyschological evaluations etc all go into a criminal trial and as far as Im concerned if a judge and jury decides that someone is guilty of a crime, then so should the congregation.

What happens after all that has been satisfied is far more problematic, as I mentioned previously. Maybe a complete exemption from field service requirement for that person and strict supervision would be part of the handling of such a person, if truly repentant and rehabilitated, and as mentioned, thats usually a very small percentage.

99

Dateline discussed openly in our congregation

by TheMatrix in

jw
friends

yesterday, the presiding overseer (elder h) read the letter from the christian congregation of jehovahs witnesses (us branch) regarding their policy on child abuse.

all scriptures were also looked up and read.. elder h is a very prepared brother.

he is a gilead graduate and served as a missionary for about 7 years in kenya before coming home because of illness.

bonovox

Stinkypantz -

>>My problem with this is: how do you know if they are actually rehabilitated?<<

And you are so right, this is a HUGE problem. I think what I meant to say by the larger problem with our justice system is that I think its really sad that this decision is being left to elders who are clearly not professionally, mentally, and it is evident in some cases, spiritually equipped to make the evaluation.

It is troubling. I mean, let's say our justice system determines that the offender has rehabilitated, gone thru all the counselling, satisfies their parole and subsequent conditions (which isn't necessarily a cakewalk, or shouldnt be anyways, and as you mention alot of the re-offenses happen during these periods), and comes to the elders and repentantdly wants to be part of the congregation again (mind you I have very negative feelings about that individual being permitted back into the same congregation the offense occurred), and then a few years go by and the person re-offends, who do we throw the book at? What if he/she leaves a meeting one night and sees a kid on the street, maybe even a non-JW, and re-offends? Do we fault the elders?

But all those hypotheses are getting away from the matters at hand, which as I see it is that for too long it has been way too easy for sickos to molest children and escape justice by relying either on their position within the congregation or the cloak of 'confessional confidentiality' which is practiced by alot of religions. The systemic conditions that allow for this MUST be changed. I think that it has to be a grassroots change. If it has to happen congregation by congregation, so be it. There is alot of old-guard in the GB. Im not so sure petioning them is the only thing that can be done. Sites like silentlambs can be used to severely expose molesters and those who protect them. Put their pictures up, post their phone numbers and addresses. Yeah, thats radical, but radical change is long overdue.

I just want to touch on another thing you said, that of hating the JWs so much. Its understandable, and most of us here can identify with the human inclination to hate a group that has ostracised us. But believe me, hating them back is just as bad, if not worse, and will only eat away at you until it destroys you. It's love that will conquer all, including hateful old guard attitudes and policies. And its that love we should all work hard to embrace.

There, Im off my soapbox for a bit... :)

--------------------------------------------------------

"one life but we're not the same, we've got to carry each other, carry each other, one love"

One

71

A Plea For Responsible Reporting

by hillary_step in

jw
friends

many hundreds of people read this site who are not subscribed, and i would suspect that the vast majority are jw's looking for answers to an internal turmoil that they may be living with.. the information posted on this board does get read and then passed among many congregations of jw's.

this information is a powerful force and is a wonderful thing for those who are seeking to be informed, and a not so wonderful thing to those in brooklyn who are seeking to harness the boundaries of knowledge.. given this scenario, and how much credibility can be lost by xjw's who perpetuate gossip and innuendo, can we check our sources and facts very carefully before we post information to this board.

there is no particular nobility in being first with news about some aspect of wts life.

bonovox

I second the request. Not to belabor it, but Im out for over 10 years now.

Yeah, Im only a newb to this board, but I'd like to see a balanced approach too. Im here because I want to find out what the heck is going on, with facts etc to boot.

I can't go to the Witness boards cause they have some form of check system where they make sure you're in good standing (which sucks, but whatever, nobody's perfect I guess).

Good idea Hilary!
-----------------------------------------------------------

"Well the God I believe in isn't short of cash, mister!"

Bullet the Blue Sky, Rattle n Hum version

99

Dateline discussed openly in our congregation

by TheMatrix in

jw
friends

yesterday, the presiding overseer (elder h) read the letter from the christian congregation of jehovahs witnesses (us branch) regarding their policy on child abuse.

all scriptures were also looked up and read.. elder h is a very prepared brother.

he is a gilead graduate and served as a missionary for about 7 years in kenya before coming home because of illness.

bonovox

crawdad,

I dont support their policies. I dont support their policies. I dont support their policies.

Do you understand that?

I'm sorry for going down a sarcastic path with you earlier about the RCC etc. I feel that perhaps I set you off with that, and I agree that that approach was counterproductive to having an intelligent conversation.

You are asking me to swallow everything I see on silentlambs whole without any sort of reasoned approach, or without offering my input on ways it could be improved, which is just as dangerous in my estimation as what the gb asks.

Please respond when you have the desire to discuss this topic reasonably.

-----------------------------------------------------

"Well the God I believe in isn't short of cash, mister!"

Bullet the Blue Sky, Rattle n Hum version

99

Dateline discussed openly in our congregation

by TheMatrix in

jw
friends

yesterday, the presiding overseer (elder h) read the letter from the christian congregation of jehovahs witnesses (us branch) regarding their policy on child abuse.

all scriptures were also looked up and read.. elder h is a very prepared brother.

he is a gilead graduate and served as a missionary for about 7 years in kenya before coming home because of illness.

bonovox

Hi Stinypantz,

Ok we're getting someone here, and I think you've hit on some excellent points! :)

I agree, I think it would be completely dangerous to allow these individuals to go door to door. Maybe the Society needs to look at banning these individuals from field service and in fact from most association with any young people, most definately unsupervised association!

I also completely agree with your statement about child molesters. They ARE largely unreformable. I think that in those cases, tho, the root problem lies not in how they are viewed or 'welcomed back' into the congregation, but whether or not they even get to that stage by being allowed back into the general population again. And quite simply, that has nothing to do with JWs. It has to do with a criminal justice system that has gone awry, in terms of far too lenient sentences and an inability by the state to properly evaluate and deem who is a dangerous offender likely to re-offend. These dangerous types should physically not even be in a position (ie because they are indefinately incarcerated or institutionalized) to even get within 10 miles of their local Kingdom Hall.

And for the small minority (which I apologize for not qualifying completely in that previous post, Im truly sorry) who can be rehabilitated, perhaps the solution for them is that for the rest of their days they are only permitted to associate fully supervised at meetings, with no service? That would perhaps necessitate a change in policy, but like I tried to say earlier (and to quote my fave band lol): 'something, is about to give...I can feel it comin..think I know what it is..'

I don't have all the answers. Just asking the questions.

---------------------------------------------------------

"Well the God I believe in isn't short of cash, mister!"

Bullet the Blue Sky, Rattle n Hum version

20

Kingdom Hall arson attack.

by nicolaou in

i learned tonight that the rugby, warwickshire kingdom hall has been attacked with some type of incendiary.. not sure how extensive the damage is but sufficient enough so that all meetings there are suspended.

no public talks for a while - watchtower studies to be held at the group centres.. there is a lot going on in rugby circuit at the moment!.

nic'

bonovox

Irrespective of whether you are a Witness or not, and btw I am not, you surely believe in some sort of God, right?

Just try the 'they pushed me to do it' one on Him when you're trying to rationalize arson, and potential harm or death of human beings? It wont work.

One, not the same, but one all the same.

-----------------------------------------------------

"Well the God I believe in isn't short of cash, mister!"

Bullet the Blue Sky, Rattle n Hum version

48

Circuit Overseers and Corruption

by MARTINLEYSHON in

jw
friends

as an ex presiding overseer and public affairs spokesperson who is now disfellowshipped!!!

i am new to this site and have read with keen interest the many and varied topics that have been posted.

during my 9 years of presiding i encountered certain corrupt c/os for example the friends would treat them like little demy gods, hanging onto their every word, they would, on their visit influence the brothers to part with cash for privledges.

bonovox

I think one thing I have learned by being out for so long is just that, that in every single organization and group out there there is good and bad. I've had so many mixed experiences with all these people, witness and non-witness, that I have a little more seasoned attitude I guess. If I took to heart all the corruption, nepotism and favoritism I see in the world I'd probably never venture out my front door. Most recently I certainly would have pulled my son out of his little league soccer club, but then would that benefit him?

Its funny, when you grow up as a Witness. There is the ingrained belief that the WTS can do no wrong, and that all its reps and people 'high up' can do no wrong. If and when you first leave, its usually because you've come crashingly to the realization that this simply isn't true. You also can (I struggle with thoughts that we perhaps even allow ourselves to do this, out of maybe mental laziness or the human nature desire to fit into a group) be mislead to accept everything that you are taught as gospel truth, which can cause you alot of internal strife.

When you're first out, everything is psychologically evaluated against that premise that the WTS is supposed to be perfect, and you develop resentment. For me it was only when I experienced exactly the same imperfections in every other group, company, whatever that I associated with that I realized that this phenomenon is not limited to the JW experience, it's universal.

That's why it's difficult for me now (dont worry I had lots of it before) to harbor resentments. Do I still hurt because my mother hasn't spoken to me in over 5 years? You'd better believe it, but you know what? My aunt and uncle, who've never been JW, haven't spoken in over 25 years, over some childhood jealousy thing that they as 50 year old adult can't get over. It's not about religion, it's about a lack of love, and a lack of capacity to love unconditionally, which is a psychological condition, as far as I can see.

Besides, just one look at the world around you and you can see that JWs hardly have the monopoly on a misinterpretation of true love.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"One life...but we're not the same, we've got to carry each other,
carry each other...one love"

One
U2

99

Dateline discussed openly in our congregation

by TheMatrix in

jw
friends

yesterday, the presiding overseer (elder h) read the letter from the christian congregation of jehovahs witnesses (us branch) regarding their policy on child abuse.

all scriptures were also looked up and read.. elder h is a very prepared brother.

he is a gilead graduate and served as a missionary for about 7 years in kenya before coming home because of illness.

bonovox

>>INSTEAD YOU WANT EVERYONE TO FOCUS ON LEAVING THE GOV BODY ALONE.<<

Uh, no, Im just not obsessed with them like you are. I make my own decisions and run my own life. If I ever DID go back to meetings, that much would not change. They've already done the max they can to me, so it'd just roll off my back anyways.

But dammit I wish you could read past two sentences and get to the questions I asked before and in other threads, I'll repeat them for you again:

- why isn't silentlambs completely up to date as of today's date and Bowen's most recent letter, with all correspondence and evidence as alleged in his laywers most recent rambling letter presented?

- if the true aim is to expose pedophiles, why isn't the site being used to that end, as suggested in my previous post and for which there are plenty of other precedents?

Im not trying to deconstruct silentlambs, personally I think child abuse is the most digustingly abhorrent crime on earth (its a good thing it wasnt one of my kids, cause I sure as hell wouldnt have waited on a JC, the police, nobody, let me tell you) and I would like to see a site like silentlambs become even MORE effective in truly exposing every single last one of the molesters.