borgfree
JoinedPosts by borgfree
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26
Jesus ... the greatest sacrifice?
by Simon inthis will probably sound controversial to anyone who is still religiously inclined so i apologies upfront and do not mean any offence by it.
it's just my 'pondering'.. i was thinking about all the times that i heard form the platform and read in the watchtower that jesus made the greatest sacrifice ever in history by giving his life in exchange for all minkind, to die for our sins etc.. but even if this were true, would it be such a great sacrifice?.
giving one life in exchange for thousands ... millions ... billions seems to be not too big a sacrifice for the return and one that many people would make today.
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borgfree
Simon,
I would tend to agree with you, if I believed Jesus is who the Watchtower taught us he is. For Christians who believe Jesus is God, His sacrifice takes on a much bigger meaning.
Imagine God, the Creator of everything in existence, (even the WT teaches Jesus created everything (else) coming to earth, being born and raised by imperfect humans, putting up with all of the faults of imperfect humans, His entire life, to save the lives of the very people who hated Him, and would finally torture Him, and put Him to a cruel death.
Seeing Jesus in that way, should make us more understanding of the huge sacrifice He made.
Borgfree
Edited by - borgfree on 25 August 2002 20:48:9
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65
Left Behind
by gravedancer inno that is not a description of a piece of rear-anatomy (i don't want to get booted again <g>).
rather it is the rage now.... please check out http://www.leftbehind.com/ and take a look.
the reason i bring this up is because 3 different people i know (not xjws) are all into this "stuff" now.
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borgfree
FriendlyFellaAl,
You commented:
I'm sure that my answer to your message is going to be seen as a cop out or somehow acquiescing to your point of view, but it's not.
Not at all. I thought it was a friendly discussion, not a, to the death duel. As you know, I am a Christian, and, I believe the bible. You have a different view, that is your right, and I do not think any less of you for having a different view.
Borgfree
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Left Behind
by gravedancer inno that is not a description of a piece of rear-anatomy (i don't want to get booted again <g>).
rather it is the rage now.... please check out http://www.leftbehind.com/ and take a look.
the reason i bring this up is because 3 different people i know (not xjws) are all into this "stuff" now.
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borgfree
Xander,
No scientist has ever said that.
I beg your pardon, I was even taught in school, by the science teacher, that sceintists stated that it is impossible for bumble bees to fly, but they fly anyway. I am not going to look it up.
That's an interesting leap of logic from somone who doesn't believe in evolution. (In short, no, there is no way viruses could be created by the 'breakdown of the human body', or breakdown of ANY body - they are completely unlike any other living organism).
I don't believe I indicated it was done by evolution. I believe the Creator, being omnisciencient (sp) could, and did, forsee all things and created everything necessary to handel every possibility.
BTW, I noticed a lot of your comments seem to be very similar to much other christian debates against evolution in using a 'straw man' - specifically, your own incomplete understanding of how it and biology works.
I am giving my thoughts and ideas as to how things "might" have happened. If my answers are like other Christians, I do not find that unusual.
My first post to you:Read up some on evolution theory, make sure you understand what it is. Only then can you fairly make up your mind what to believe, and know how to intelligently debate it.
I got involved in a debate on evolution some months ago on this board. It is a never ending debate and one that cannot be proved one way or the other by science, I believe.
My second post to you:
I will try to respond to your questions. I will admit from the start that my responses will not be to your satisfaction, how can anyone know what the Almighty God is thinking? or why He did or did not do certain things?
and:
I am not that knowledgeable about viruses and parasites.
and:
I will have to leave that question for someone more qualified that me. I do not know the answer.
and:
Sorry, that is the best I can do. There are some here much more qualified that I am to discuss those questions.
I don't think I gave any indication that I thought I was qualified to adaquately debate the subject of evolution.
I did not even intend to post very much about it but, SYN said:
Borgfree says he doesn't want to answer some simple questions!
so, I thought I would answer what I personally think.
At that, I will end my discussion on evolution.
Borgfree
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65
Left Behind
by gravedancer inno that is not a description of a piece of rear-anatomy (i don't want to get booted again <g>).
rather it is the rage now.... please check out http://www.leftbehind.com/ and take a look.
the reason i bring this up is because 3 different people i know (not xjws) are all into this "stuff" now.
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borgfree
Xander, you said:
Evolution is not wrong, and it is understandable - there are many biologists who study it on a day to day basis. Further, belief in evolution does not require believing in contradictory teachings. RE: "God of Love" vs "Who creates smallpox?".
I would disagree and I think millions of other people would disagree that evolution "is not wrong, and is understandable"
There are also many people studying the Satanic bible, that does not make it truth. Some scientists have, in the past, declared that it was impossible for a bumble bee to fly. They were obviously wrong.
I believe God is Love, as the bible states. Why does the answer have to be that smallpox was created? Maybe that is like asking Ford Motor Co. why they manufactured rust. Maybe diseases happen as a result of human inperfection and the breakdown of the human body. If a person were in perfect health his body would probably be immune to disease.
We can explain why evolution works the way it does - you cannot explain why your god works the way he does. We can explain how evolution works - you cannot explain how your god works. Evolution can explain how life has got to where it is, including why we have viruses and parasites - you can't explain why life is the way it is now, including why we have viruses and parasites.
Is that really true? Has the explanations of evolution remained exactly the same from Darwin until now? If it has changed, then one would have every reason to doubt current teachings, just as we now recognize about the WT.
You are right, I cannot explain why God works the way He does.
Evolution may be able to explain all of those things, but, are the explanations trustworthy? will those explanations change in the future?
Science is all about finding a REASON for things
I think the word science means knowledge. I am, and always have been, a believer in true science. I also recognize that some scientists have been dishonest in the past, for their reasons, and some might be dishonest again. If there is a Creator, (I believe there is,) I do not expect to have all of the answers now, I do not think the scientists have all of the answers either.
Funny....that wasn't mentioned in 'Genesis'. Which, of course, then begs the question of....did 'god' create everything as we see it today? (Well, obviously not) So, what DID everything look like when it was initially created? Genesis even states humans were created not knowing good from bad, and demonstrated no self-awareness (and talking to animals, fer cryin out loud!)
Atomic energy was not mentioned in Genesis either. So, whats so bad about talking to animals? Some people talk to TV sets. (sorry, excuse the attempt at humor, I am having a hard time concentrating right now, my work force is coming in and we are getting busy)
You could look at our genetic code to find out, but that involves asking questions you seem to be uncomfortable with.
What I am uncomfortable with is trusting "experts". They seem to change, and then blame the people for being ignorant.
Must get to work. Later.
Borgfree
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Left Behind
by gravedancer inno that is not a description of a piece of rear-anatomy (i don't want to get booted again <g>).
rather it is the rage now.... please check out http://www.leftbehind.com/ and take a look.
the reason i bring this up is because 3 different people i know (not xjws) are all into this "stuff" now.
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borgfree
Xander,
you say:
If you DON'T believe in a christian god - there AREN'T any issues that have to be 'explained away'. There may not be an easily understandable reason for the creation of the universe (there is a number of possible explanations, none of them 'easily understandable'), but at least there is no contradicting behavior of the world that must be 'explained away.'
It then is ok, to accept things that are wrong or not understandable with evolution, but, at the same time it is wrong to believe in a Creator unless you can explain everything He does, He chooses to do, He thinks, His entire mental makeup, etc.?
There is no clear cut understanding of ANYTHING - it all has to be justified, or explained away, or you simply must 'have faith' because there is no logical reason to believe it.
Aren't you saying the same thing about evolution?
And, that's ALL evolution is. Over millions of generations, simple changes such as that can begin to alter the form of the creature entirely.
Or, maybe, could it be, just possibly, the One who created everything, quasars, black holes (if they exist) suns, planets, the earth, plants, animals, the ocean, people, and billions of other things, just might have designed living things to "change....begin to alter" as the need might require?
Borgfree
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Left Behind
by gravedancer inno that is not a description of a piece of rear-anatomy (i don't want to get booted again <g>).
rather it is the rage now.... please check out http://www.leftbehind.com/ and take a look.
the reason i bring this up is because 3 different people i know (not xjws) are all into this "stuff" now.
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borgfree
FriendFellaAl,
I went to the site you mentioned. I do not have time to read the entire site but I chose the one titled Homosexual Agenda. What do you see wrong with their statement?
Are We Singling Out Homosexuals?
Karen BattlesE-mail this page to a friend
Contributing Columnist & AFR Staff Member
April 2, 2001
Much discussion has been given to the idea that homosexuals are being targeted for punishment by those of us labeled as "conservative Christians." Many observers claim we do not oppose adultery and other sins in the same way we oppose homosexuality.
Two events in the State of Georgia will serve nicely to discuss this issue. Both revolve around the Southern Baptist denomination, but this argument is heard in numerous other denominations as well. This is a Biblical problem, not a Baptist problem.
Event 1: Atlanta ChurchesHere is a quick summation of one controversy in the proverbial peanut shell. Southern Baptist associations and conventions, including local, state and the national convention, and other Christian groups have been following the case of the Atlanta Baptist Association and two of its member churches -- Atlanta Oakhurst Church of Decatur and Virginia-Highland Church of Atlanta.
Atlanta Oakhurst and Virginia-Highland created controversy when they went beyond ministering to homosexuals and chose to affirm and endorse homosexuality, evidenced in placing homosexuals in church leadership positions and providing access to church property for same-sex union ceremonies. Atlanta Baptist Association created controversy earlier this year by not doing anything about the two member churches unscriptural position.
This has been a long saga, but recently the Atlanta Baptist Association voted to amend its bylaws, stating an affiliated church does not include a church which knowingly takes, or has taken, any action to affirm, approve, or endorse homosexual behavior. This would seem to terminate the membership of the two churches in the Association; but in another vote on the membership of Atlanta Oakhurst and Virginia-Highland, the two-thirds majority necessary to oust the two churches was not attained -- so, they remain members of the Atlanta Baptist Association. As a result, the Atlanta Baptist Association has now been de-funded by the Georgia Baptist Convention due to the Conventions Biblical stand on homosexuality.
Much of the above information was garnered from an article by William Neal, editor of The Christian Index. The singled-out specter was raised in a direct quote from Mr. Neals article: Perry Ginn, pastor of Valley Brook church in Decatur, questioned the fairness of singling out one particular sin like homosexuality, when 'all of us are contaminated by sin.
There, it has been said, the dreaded phrase -- singling out. It conjures up images of childhood rejection and alienation; the one who was always picked on. But before we get to the discussion, lets take a look at the second situation.
Event 2: Jimmy CarterIn October 2000, former President Jimmy Carter left the Southern Baptist Church, citing the SBC's conservative views and subsequent stand on the issues of homosexuality, abortion and ordination of women. A Baptist Press article stated Jimmy Carter believes homosexuality is a sin, but he approves of the ordination of homosexuals. If a homosexual was demonstrating the essence of Christianity, I would not object to the individual being ordained, Carter said in an interview with Baptist Press. Adultery is a more serious sin than homosexuality... Homosexuals have a perfect right to profess to be Christians, accept Christ as Savior, and I wouldnt have a problem if they worshiped side by side with me, Carter said. Jesus never singled out homosexuals to be condemned. When the Southern Baptist Convention started singling out [emphasis mine] homosexuals as a special form or degree of sinfulness, I didnt agree with it.
Once again, the phrase singling out has been cast upon the waters. Are conservative Christians really after the homosexuals? Whats the real reason conservative Christians take a stand on homosexuality? Could it be because it is a sin and Christians must take a stand against sin, including the sin in their own lives? Even Mr. Carter said he believes homosexuality is a sin, although not as serious a sin as adultery. It would seem Mr. Carter believes the best way to deal with sin in the church is to decide the level or severity of sin. After establishing the sin quotient, you then tolerate or encourage the lesser sin.
Sin 'Normalized'Perhaps there is another reason more groups are defining their view of homosexuality -- specifically, the organized effort to normalize and promote this sinful behavior. During the 1970s, homosexuals organized and started promoting their lifestyle. What Christians know to be sin, this movement calls "alternative lifestyle"; what Christians know to be aberrant, this movement calls "normal"; what Christians know to be a choice, this movement calls "genetic." (By the way, there is no scientific evidence to support the gay gene theory.) The national news media and entertainment industry joined this campaign and are careful to present homosexual-friendly images. Because of this campaign, morality has been breached. Churches are now trying to establish the level of sin that is acceptable. Some are even trying to redefine what sin is -- these are the ones who believe the only sin is to speak out and hold firm to moral truths. This overt campaign to normalize the abnormal and sinful brings up another question: Where will we stop redefining Gods word?
Let's suppose there was an organization called the National Association to Promote Adultery, whose mission was to promote adultery as a healthy and beneficial alternative lifestyle. What if their campaign started making inroads into some churches? What if churches even started allowing adulterous union ceremonies on church property and allowing open adulterers to be church leaders? Should the church take a stand? Or should Christians fold their hands and say, We are all sinners. Lets embrace their alternative lifestyle? Would the church champion the ordination of an open adulterer?
Wait a minute ... there are people in the church actively committing adultery, including some who are leaders. Sure, they try to hide it, but others know their secret. And what about all the premarital sex that is going on? Maybe there is a reason some people are confused and think Christians are singling out homosexuals. Could it be the overwhelming lack of church discipline? No one wants to be accountable for his/her actions -- thus, no one holds anyone else accountable. It grieves me to think there are those who call themselves Christians, including church leaders and even ministers, who are cheating on their spouses, taxes, and who knows what else. But what grieves me even more is for another Christian to be aware of this ... and do nothing.
Sin ConfrontedGods word clearly lays out the process for confronting a believer who is in sin:I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people -- not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. 1 Corinthians 5:9-11 (NIV)
This passage clearly states we have to confront those who call themselves Christian but choose to live contrary to Gods word. If they choose not to repent, the church has no choice but to remove them from fellowship. Should people continue to compassionately reach out to the expelled immoral believer? Yes -- but true compassion is always shared with Gods truth, which will lead to restoration if there is repentance.
Can we call those who are not believers to this standard? No -- and we should reach out to unbelievers and share the Gospel of Christ with them. Conversely, we cannot allow unbelievers to hold positions of leadership in the Church, nor can we allow the perverting of the Word of God to make them feel more comfortable.
Call for ObedienceOnce again we are faced with our initial question: Are conservative Christians singling out homosexual sin over other sins? The answer would depend on the Christian you are speaking about. I am sure there are those who focus on someone elses sin to make themselves feel better about their own sin. But there are Christians who want our churches to be filled with those who are truly seeking the face of God. They want their fellow believers to have a passion to live in faith and obedience to God.
The solution to this is not in accepting homosexuality. The answer is clear: we must call those who bear the name of Christ to obedience in the Word. The answer is in cleaning up our churches and confronting the immoral believer. The answer is sanctification -- the process of becoming like Christ.http://www.afa.net/homosexual_agenda/kb040201.asp
Remember we are Christian believers. We must follow bible Christianity. No one is forced to be a member of a Christian church. No one is forced to believe the Christian faith. But, no one has a right to demand that Christians abandon their sacred beliefs to please those who do not agree with them.
If there is a statement on the American Family web-site that is trying to deny homosexuals their rights in any way please post that link and I will read it.
Borgfree
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Left Behind
by gravedancer inno that is not a description of a piece of rear-anatomy (i don't want to get booted again <g>).
rather it is the rage now.... please check out http://www.leftbehind.com/ and take a look.
the reason i bring this up is because 3 different people i know (not xjws) are all into this "stuff" now.
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borgfree
SS, you said:
you said homosexuals don't have right to break gods law
I am a Christian believer, I believe the bible, I cannot pronounce whether or not people have a "right" to break God's laws. I read in the bible that God demands that people obey His laws or suffer the consequences.
gods law says no to practicing homosex
Correct.
therefore you deny homos rights to practice
I do not deny anybody any rights. If a person wants to break God's law, that person will answer to God, not to me.
Borgfree
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Anyone Near Dayton OH
by zenpunk ini'm being flown out next week for a final interview and a tremendous job opportunity.
but before i sell the house and move - i was just wondering how many of you are out there and your opinions of the area (i will need some new good association).
also, i'm from the wilds of ny - do you think i can adjust to ohio?
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borgfree
Kingspawn,
I don't think I have ever met him. Is he married to Norma? If so, did you know Norma won a city council seat several years ago, and is still, I think, a counselwoman?
Borgfree
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Left Behind
by gravedancer inno that is not a description of a piece of rear-anatomy (i don't want to get booted again <g>).
rather it is the rage now.... please check out http://www.leftbehind.com/ and take a look.
the reason i bring this up is because 3 different people i know (not xjws) are all into this "stuff" now.
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borgfree
Xander,
I will try to respond to your questions. I will admit from the start that my responses will not be to your satisfaction, how can anyone know what the Almighty God is thinking? or why He did or did not do certain things?
If 'god' exists, as you say, and is a 'loving god' - why did he create viruses and parasites? Again, not in the food chain, serve no good, only kill things. Why would a loving god create them?
I am not that knowledgeable about viruses and parasites. I think there may be similar reasons as the reason God created vultures, sharks, maggots, etc. Creatures like those clean up the earth, waters, etc. of waste, so that diseases are not caused by carcuses lying around decaying.
Second (related) question: viruses cannot reproduce without killing living cells. Assuming 'god' DID create them for some holy reason, how did they survive the time period when everyone on earth was perfect? I mean, if our cells were somehow not vulnerable to smallpox, how could it reproduce? (rhetorical: it couldn't)
I will have to leave that question for someone more qualified that me. I do not know the answer.
Third question: how do you explain that evolution can be observed to be happening? Viruses and many insects have been OBSERVED evolving from generation to generation. How can this be if evolution isn't a valid explanation for creation?
I am not convinced that evolution can be observed to be happening. Maybe adaptation? Where would I find evidence that any living thing is evolving? Factual evidence? Not just adapting.
Sorry, that is the best I can do. There are some here much more qualified that I am to discuss those questions.
Borgfree