Posts by diamondblue1974

55

Cross is a pagan symbol, watchtower is a pagan symbol too

by Noelle in

jw
friends

you all jehovah witnesses that said jesus didn't die on a cross but on a stake your wrong because the romans were pagans and what better way to crucify someone than on a pagan symbol.

i have a fact that you need to listen to as well, the watchtower which you symbolize is a pagan symbol as well.

oh no how can that be you ask, well let me tell you.. in ceremonial magic and some traditions of wicca and neopaganism, the four cardinal points are believed to have spiritual guardians called watchtowers.

diamondblue1974

The biggest point that is missing on this thread is paganism isn't just about origin but also about usage! is something that has pagan origins being used in the same way as it originally intended with those pagan origins?

For someone that has been out of the Witnesses for 10 years you are certainly applying a modern reasoning prescribed by the society! If this actually applies, what about Birthdays?

You can definately say this of the cross it's always been a symbol of diety and worship from it's pagan roots onwards, Now lets look at JW usage of the Watchtower it the symbol on the front of one of their magazine and the lapsed title of the organisation (say watchtower and tract society to average person they'll go "Huh?" say Jehovah's witness and they'll know who your talking about)

No they wont, Jehovahs Witnesses are well known for their connection to the Watchtower Society.

I just don't think the pagan arguments on this thread are very strong. You may disagree but i think original post sounds like the appologist trying to drag up a pagan link and comparative equality between the Cross and the watchtower which just doesn't stand up to close scrutiny.

There were not just pagan arguments but those related to the Occult whether that be Christian Occultism or otherwise - the fact is the Watchtower symbol was introduced at a time when it was being widely used by Occultists including Masons and Hermeticists as well as Pagans.

Not doing a good job of remaining no part of this world eh?

Gary

55

Cross is a pagan symbol, watchtower is a pagan symbol too

by Noelle in

jw
friends

you all jehovah witnesses that said jesus didn't die on a cross but on a stake your wrong because the romans were pagans and what better way to crucify someone than on a pagan symbol.

i have a fact that you need to listen to as well, the watchtower which you symbolize is a pagan symbol as well.

oh no how can that be you ask, well let me tell you.. in ceremonial magic and some traditions of wicca and neopaganism, the four cardinal points are believed to have spiritual guardians called watchtowers.

diamondblue1974

The Cross and Crown also is a symbol of sexual union - the cross being phallic and the crown being the feminine counter part - again this has its basis as Gill said within the Knights Templar and Masonic Orders. It could also be said to have a pagan link given its connection with Male and Female elements of the divine.

Gary

55

Cross is a pagan symbol, watchtower is a pagan symbol too

by Noelle in

jw
friends

you all jehovah witnesses that said jesus didn't die on a cross but on a stake your wrong because the romans were pagans and what better way to crucify someone than on a pagan symbol.

i have a fact that you need to listen to as well, the watchtower which you symbolize is a pagan symbol as well.

oh no how can that be you ask, well let me tell you.. in ceremonial magic and some traditions of wicca and neopaganism, the four cardinal points are believed to have spiritual guardians called watchtowers.

diamondblue1974

hi diamond blue i'm glad you admit the speculation because it is in my opinion a very big leap, Yes CT Russell liked his pyramids and if he had called it "The Pyramid" and had a big one of them on the front of the magazine we would be having a different conversation and I would be agreeing with you but....
he used a symbol thats has scriptural back up and there is no evidence of anything other than scriptural basis used in this case and it would be speculating to say otherwise.
Basically this thread can only say that watchtower may have some obscure pagan roots which can be said of anything pictorially but certainly can bring no connection between this and its usage by ct russell, Unlike the cross which was chosen as a direct result of pagan imagery and can be proved so!

CT Russell didnt just 'like his pyramids'; there is more compelling evidence which highlights his masonic and occult links. In her book Occult Theocracy (1933), Edith Star Miller at page 737 confirms CT Russells membership of the Masonic Order.

The terminology that he used within his publications confirmed that he had more than a basic understanding of the Masonic Orders. His use of the words Grand Master, Grand Architect, Society, Brotherhood, Order, and Initiation (amongst many others) cannot just be coincidental. His other use of symbols gives the game away as well, such as his use of Winged Sun Disk. This symbol being used in Rosicrucianism and Kabbalistic circles.

Going back to the issue of the Watchtowers usage it cannot just be coincidental that we find its origins within not only paganism but the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn which is an offshoot from the Masonic Order and involves similar works.

It is a fact that he chose a symbol that was at the time (and still is) widely used by Occultists and those involved in Gardenarian Witchcraft and Western Mystery Traditions including the Golden Dawn. The fact that he alludes to some old testament scripture is more convenient than factual.

You seem to jump on my speculations and apparent objectivity as an indication that there is no merit in my contention - First of all I only speculated that he used the symbols to gain credibility. As for the fact that he used such symbols in the manner he did and at the time he did and within the environment he did, this isnt speculation but is based upon compelling evidence.

22

Sitting on the terraces at Hillsborough / Maine Road eating Hellas bars

by Simon in

jw
friends

the topic on assembly meals hot food at the dcs past...what was it like?

made me think of the days sat on the terraces at district conventions.

they were originally 4 day affairs but ended up just friday and the weekend (maybe they are just the weekend now?)..

diamondblue1974

I remember those 'chocolate' bars well - they had assorted fillings in them and by the end of the convention I remember having tons left over and not wanting to eat them. They only tasted good during the sessions.

I also remember Maine Road well too - as I got older I used to look forward to going for a walk to the toilets which were furthest away and would take most time to get to and from.

Fond memories lol.

Gary

55

Cross is a pagan symbol, watchtower is a pagan symbol too

by Noelle in

jw
friends

you all jehovah witnesses that said jesus didn't die on a cross but on a stake your wrong because the romans were pagans and what better way to crucify someone than on a pagan symbol.

i have a fact that you need to listen to as well, the watchtower which you symbolize is a pagan symbol as well.

oh no how can that be you ask, well let me tell you.. in ceremonial magic and some traditions of wicca and neopaganism, the four cardinal points are believed to have spiritual guardians called watchtowers.

diamondblue1974

I also forgot to mention that the Watchtower Society is reverred by Jehovahs Witnesses as they often refer to Jehovah and the organisation using the same terminology for example when purely organisational teachings and thoughts are taught as teachings from Jehovah.

Therefore whilst JW's dont have an altar or wear a symbol round their neck, Jehovahs Witnesses do practice idolatry in one way or another by their unwavering devotion to the society.

The Society itself is an Idol.The Governing Body ,FDS and Society are all like a golden calf.

Exactly - you cannot worship Jehovah without the society which in my view demonstrates arrogance on the part of the WTS

Gary

55

Cross is a pagan symbol, watchtower is a pagan symbol too

by Noelle in

jw
friends

you all jehovah witnesses that said jesus didn't die on a cross but on a stake your wrong because the romans were pagans and what better way to crucify someone than on a pagan symbol.

i have a fact that you need to listen to as well, the watchtower which you symbolize is a pagan symbol as well.

oh no how can that be you ask, well let me tell you.. in ceremonial magic and some traditions of wicca and neopaganism, the four cardinal points are believed to have spiritual guardians called watchtowers.

diamondblue1974

I think I made my comparative point quite clearly, I don't have a little watchtower around my neck or worship a shrine watchtower but this thread makes a comparson between a cross and a watchtower.
So ok so both a catholic and a JW would argue that the cross and the watchtower are just symbols...so weres the difference?
In usage!
Idolatory = Worship of a cult image, an object venerated as the representation as a deity
can we apply this to cross and watchtower? I'll leave that one for you guys to decide.
As to the paganity argument, just google pagan cross and pagan watchtower, The Cross is on a totally different ball park as it was chosen as a direct result of those pagan origins! which just can't be said of Wts chosing the watchtower symbol as anything more than something of scriptural origin only.
If you can prove to me that the watchtower chosen because of it's pagan roots and not scriptural roots than you have a point!

It is the Watchtower Society that insists that they remain seperate from the world and not entertain pagan images yet surprisingly we find pagan origins in the Watchtower symbol itself. CT Russell's grave stone and other evidence gives away that he had masonic connections and it is well established that Freemasonry has Occult links. Furthermore if we consider the time when the Watchtower symbol started to be used, it was a time when occultism and the like were well established and at the fore. It doesnt take a huge mental leap to see that this wouldnt have escaped Russells notice when he made this change given his links with Occultism. Whilst it is speculation, it could be reasonably argued that he used this symbolism to gain credibility in circles where occultism and freemasonry were prominent. The alternative view that suggests he chose it purely from a scripture in the old testament seems a little unlikely given the above. Whilst the Watchtower symbolism does have some pagan origins as already discussed, I think he probably approached his choice of symbol from a Christian Occultist point of view as opposed to from a pagan perspective. The name has never been changed from Zions Watchtower to Jehovahs Witnesses - it was changed from Zions Watchtower to Watchtower Announcing Jehovahs Kingdom thus retaining the same symbolism and origins. Nonetheless this still suggests that the Watchtowers origins were far from seperate from this world. Gary

25

What is the problem with new age stuff?

by loosie in

when i speak to some christians they seem to have a fear of things new age related.. i was speaking to three christians today who i thought are very rational.

i tolf them how my jw friend says the only good thing about getting older was that we are closer to the end of the world.

their response was well the bible says the world is gonna end.. then they started in about oprah endorsing these new age books ( a new earth by eckhart tolle) and how it is so wrong for her to do that.. i was giggling and i said yeah well some people think that obama is the antichrist lol.

diamondblue1974

Anything that is not strictly Christian or represents an alternative to Christian dogma will result in it being demonised to some extent.

That being as it is, I do agree that theres is a collective unconscious move towards nature based spiritualities or new age beliefs. After all the age of Aquarius was said to have been announced by Jesus in Luke 22:10 - I cant understand therefore why Christians have such a jaundiced view of it.

Gary

55

Cross is a pagan symbol, watchtower is a pagan symbol too

by Noelle in

jw
friends

you all jehovah witnesses that said jesus didn't die on a cross but on a stake your wrong because the romans were pagans and what better way to crucify someone than on a pagan symbol.

i have a fact that you need to listen to as well, the watchtower which you symbolize is a pagan symbol as well.

oh no how can that be you ask, well let me tell you.. in ceremonial magic and some traditions of wicca and neopaganism, the four cardinal points are believed to have spiritual guardians called watchtowers.

diamondblue1974

Comparing cross worship to a little symbol on a magazine, is like comparing a blue whale to a single cell organism! why do these latest batch of threads have so little objectivity in them?

Reniaa, I am not being rude but you are a fine one to bang on about objectivity - your posts have always lacked objectivity when it comes to defending and supporting the watchtower stance on issues.

Secondly, this thread is about symbolism and the fact is, the watchtower and the cross are archetypes and symbols widely used in society whether that be Christian or Pagan - the watchtower archetype isnt just a brand motif or as you put it a 'little symbol' its origins and its use reaches back centuries both in the Occult or Christian context.

I dont see any lack of objectivity and it would be appreciated if you could please point them out if you feel different.

Gary

55

Cross is a pagan symbol, watchtower is a pagan symbol too

by Noelle in

jw
friends

you all jehovah witnesses that said jesus didn't die on a cross but on a stake your wrong because the romans were pagans and what better way to crucify someone than on a pagan symbol.

i have a fact that you need to listen to as well, the watchtower which you symbolize is a pagan symbol as well.

oh no how can that be you ask, well let me tell you.. in ceremonial magic and some traditions of wicca and neopaganism, the four cardinal points are believed to have spiritual guardians called watchtowers.

diamondblue1974

Thanks for bringing this information to our attention.

One point I thought I would make is that if you quote wikipedia you should really cite it as your source of information. The information however is invaluable and thanks again!

Gary /|\

26

Been to London today!!!

by digderidoo in

jw
friends

i haven't been to london in about 15 years.

i decided to take my kids for their first outing to see the sights.

i remember as a kid going with my mom and nan, we actually went inside the houses of parliament, went in the house of lords, up downing st, but now with the terrorist threats obviously all thats changed.. there is a definate difference in the security aspect of it, but not enough to take the shine off the experience.. we saw the changing of the guard at buckingham palace, the band playing were the ghurka regiment, something i have never seen before.

diamondblue1974

I like London.
Gary and I spent a weekend there early in our relationship....ahhhhhhhh the memories
Gorgeous hotel...lovely meal out at a gorgeous mexican restaurant and then theatre - Phantom of the Opera
The following day we visited a Salvador Dali exhibition because I love Dali and we went to the British Museum where I was totally in awe of the Egypt section (I love ALL THINGS connected to ancient egypt).
Gary was wonderful...I knew I'd got my man LOL

You see, the whole seduction thing did work!

Love ya honey!

G x