Russell as in Bertrand Russell....
So, Philosophers are there to disagree with each other. I disagree with most philosophers all the time, of course depending on the subject.
Hi =)
Delta20
JoinedPosts by Delta20
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145
New here
by Delta20 inmy name is jaron, 19 years old, i'm from the netherlands, and in about a month i am going to start joining the jw's meetings and i'm kind of looking forward to become a jw.
i can of course tell ya'll my entire spiritual story, but that would take an entire bookwork.
in a nuttshell: my father is an ex-jw, my half-sis (from an earlier marriage from my dads) is one of those "special pioneers", and i am jewish (my mom is jewish).
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145
New here
by Delta20 inmy name is jaron, 19 years old, i'm from the netherlands, and in about a month i am going to start joining the jw's meetings and i'm kind of looking forward to become a jw.
i can of course tell ya'll my entire spiritual story, but that would take an entire bookwork.
in a nuttshell: my father is an ex-jw, my half-sis (from an earlier marriage from my dads) is one of those "special pioneers", and i am jewish (my mom is jewish).
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Delta20
Personally I wouldn't have equated the two incidents, but seeing as you have, I believe they are fair game:
Are you likening the consequences of a deranged madman (Hitler) to the consequences of a small mean-minded sect led by a few semi-senile octogenarians?I simply stated what imo (and from what I get from the bible) God's will is because that was your question. And to the last likening. I wasn't doing that at all, that is what you make of it.
The questions I was actually refering to were the personal ones, like how long you've been studying, how many of the religions you quoted you've actually studied with (rather than merely about, and potentially using WTS literature), etc., etc..
Well, I cant reclaim I ever said i studied with somebody, but here it goes. I studied Chazanut, Rabbanut, Jahadut and a large part of the Talmud Bavli at school and with the rabbeye of the local synagogue. I read NT mostly by myself, went to 2 churches and talked to the pastor of both a few times. Read parts of the Koran myself as part of an introductory course to the Koran of a youthgroup I was member of, in Istanbul. After that course we were in a 45 minute tv program broadcasted in the NL about that course and similar courses to other religions (debate was about tolerance). I have had many conversations with my reformed history teacher in highschool, plus last 6 months with my professors at Uni. Rest of the christian stuff ill prolly learn when studying theology. I had 2 friends who were mormons and were studying in Zoetermeer, where theres also a temple of them, and I had also lots of boom consults and debates with them about the books they added. Uhm, thats some of the stuff, not including all the things ive read totally on my own, like most of the JW lecture, and the few times ive been to KH. Prolly done more then this, much more, been to Israel, been to musea... etcetera.
As I said earlier, I am just beginning, but here comes my question, which I asked repeatadly and I havent seen an answer to that one yet... is there a better religion out there (besides the self-religion) and why is that one better? Only one who tried to answer that was TD, at least I think he did when he said that because of pikuach nefesh Judaism was better then JW.
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Intelligent Design
by Delta20 inhey all,.
i am currently studying the topic of intelligent design (id).
basically the id theory is the revival of the teleological argument for the existance of a deity.
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Delta20
In the last 50 years we have found more evidence for the existance of God then ever before.
that is not proof.
....
No....
.... Its evidence... they're arguments that make the existance of a Deity more likely, just like a knife with blood on it could be evidence for a murder if you find it under certain special conditions. So you are totally correct by calling it no proof, which is the same reason why I didnt do that in the first place, but I find it very perceptive of you that you could draw that conclusion [/sarcasm]
Ugh, sorry, Its just late again.... ;)
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New here
by Delta20 inmy name is jaron, 19 years old, i'm from the netherlands, and in about a month i am going to start joining the jw's meetings and i'm kind of looking forward to become a jw.
i can of course tell ya'll my entire spiritual story, but that would take an entire bookwork.
in a nuttshell: my father is an ex-jw, my half-sis (from an earlier marriage from my dads) is one of those "special pioneers", and i am jewish (my mom is jewish).
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Delta20
Valis,
Well, Russell was wrong, I can most certainly speak of things that I dont know, at least in the perspective that you are using it. And if you want me to leave out the praise for the JW then you must edit the board rules and include "No praising the JW because we don't like em". As I said before, this starts to look like taking away my rights to ask questions or to express my doubts, the same thing you accuse the JW off! I am here for serious questions, and I'm seriously reading your replies and answer them as honestly as I can.
As you have noticed I keep repeating some things, that is because you keep repeating the same questions towards me and don't really listen to my answers, and if you do you do not reply correctly to them (might want to read some of TD's replies, ive learned a lot from him and at least he and LT are nice enough to continue without starting about BS). I already said how I feel about bloodtransfusions and about giving your life for God. If you don't believe that then just say so, but then I also take that you don't believe in the bible, where a man would have sacrificed his son to God, his own son! All JW's do are follow that example. If you think you know the truth and that you know for 100% sure that this is wrong then please explain to me why God asked that of Abraham without turning to the "its just a story" argument). By the way, if you think that suicide bombing is the same as the bloodtransfusion stand of the JW then I have the feeling that something is seriously wrong with you.
LT,
I think above also answered your question: "Is it God's will that the child die? Is it truly? Is that what the blood prohibition was REALLY about?". No its not God's will that the child dies, just as it wasnt Gods will that 50 million people died in WWII, and so on.
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Intelligent Design
by Delta20 inhey all,.
i am currently studying the topic of intelligent design (id).
basically the id theory is the revival of the teleological argument for the existance of a deity.
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Delta20
I am reffering to the entire ID argument that Ive just posted, which has been developed over the past 50 years since the upcomming of Biochemistry and better Astronomy.
True, there is a lot of literature against ID, but usually it doesnt say anything, or as I will also repeat later, Darwinism can adapt to interpret everything. By the way that site gives old quotes on which Behe and Dembskia dn others replied thoroughly, plus it only features the opinions of the anti-ID group. A nice book which gives you boith the perspective of darwinists and ID is N.A.Manson: "God and Design". A site with some over and back articles: http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/fte/darwinism/index.html (made by a christian group, but the articles there are unedited and pro and contra ID and evolution, which gives you a better overview).
Quotes,
Darwinism (i.e. the theory that explains observed changes in species over time)
Actually, today Darwinism, or I should say neo-Darwinism, is a theory that explains everything. It can explain social structures, natural laws, etcetera. So defining it as a theory that only explains OBSERVED changes is a wrong definition. Darwinists actually try to make predictions on the bases of their theory. Problem is that everything can be interpreted on a Darwinian way so its very hard to make concrete arguments against them. -
145
New here
by Delta20 inmy name is jaron, 19 years old, i'm from the netherlands, and in about a month i am going to start joining the jw's meetings and i'm kind of looking forward to become a jw.
i can of course tell ya'll my entire spiritual story, but that would take an entire bookwork.
in a nuttshell: my father is an ex-jw, my half-sis (from an earlier marriage from my dads) is one of those "special pioneers", and i am jewish (my mom is jewish).
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Delta20
Hmm, I wonder whether I should take that BS stuff as a compliment or not...
But err, yeah, Im actually 19 years old, and Im studying Philosophy at the moment, and I just completed my class Argumentation and we learned about Ad Hominems and other stuff there so I thought it would be fun to put it to practise. My website is www.sofdnl.com and theres pictures on their from me as well. (Its my Guild page, Just cant remember if the pics were public or for everyone, I didnt create that part myself).
BTW, If you think what we are discussing is BS then I wonder if thats something you should actually post on a thread. If you want me to stop posting thats fine with me, because maybe it confuses you. If you are really serious about it then let an admin PM me and i'll be sure to live by it. I just thought that this was a forum where we could talk about JW's, but I guess the JW's arent the only ones where "questions and doubts" might get you DMed.......
LT:
Ive been educated in the old testament by my jewish teachers since I was 9. Since my 14th/15th Ive been looking for the truth. So about 4/5 years now. Maybe thats too early to form a conclusion, but I can have my opinions can I ;)
Edit:
I saw someone else being accused of that, so I thought I'd mention I wasn't one of those BEFORE I would get accused of that. Besides, wouldnt real JW's not be allowed to talk to you guys anyway? ;)
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Intelligent Design
by Delta20 inhey all,.
i am currently studying the topic of intelligent design (id).
basically the id theory is the revival of the teleological argument for the existance of a deity.
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Delta20
Hey all,
I am currently studying the topic of Intelligent Design (ID). Basically the ID theory is the revival of the teleological argument for the existance of a Deity. There's 4 sub-categories of ID that I know of:
- Biological Arguments
- Cosmological Arguments
- Mathematical Arguments
- Anti-Darwinian Arguments1: Biological Arguments
The first sub-category of ID is the biological one. There main theorie here is the theory of Irreducible Complexity (IC), developed by M.J. Behe, a biochemist at LeHigh University. IC means, in Behe's words:" ... a single system composed of several well-matched, interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, wherein the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning. An irreducibly complex system cannot be produced directly (that is, by continuously improving the initial function, which continues to work by the same mechanism) by slight, successive modifications of a precursor system, because any precursor to an irreducibly complex system that is missing a part is by definition nonfunctional." The analogy used to explain this is usually a mousetrap. A mousetrap has several components, all of which are necessary for catching mice. A precursor "trap" that lacked one of the components -- the spring, the trigger or the platform, perhaps -- could not trap mice, and lacking even minimal function, could not be improved through incremental adaptive evolution into a functioning trap. Just like this, there are processes in the body, like a bacterial flegallum, the bloodclotting system, and many more systems which are IC and can't be evolved in the darwinian way (For more info read his easy-to-read book: Darwin's Black Box) And of course, behijnd an IC system there is a creator, which might be God.
2: Cosmological Arguments
Or in other words, the Anthropic Principle. It seems that our entire universe has been "fine-tuned" for life. If the constants of this universe (constants like gravityconstant, weak nuclear force, strong nuclear force, etcetera) would be slightly different then this universe would either not exist or would certainly not be life suitable. Also, the exact timing and assymetry of the Bog Bang is calculated to be so precise, that if some contstants there varied less then 1 part of 10^66 (a to with 66 zeros) then this universe would have either collapsed back in itself or would have been expanding so fast that there could be no galaxies and no solar systems. Very small changes in other constants would make all stars Red Dwarfs or Blue Giants, would make Helium the only atom, or would make all sun cores from Iron, would make no atoms just free electrons, or only radiation possible, etcetera. Also, our earth is very rare. Would we be more towards the inside of the galaxy then there would be deadly radiation and black holes. Would we be closer to the sun then it would be too hot for life, vice versa would it be too cold. Would Jupiter not be there then we would be hit by a big asteroid every 100,000 years. Would the moon not be there then the climate would be very hard for the existance of life, etcetera etcetera. All these things are exactly the way they should be for life. (Read this all in W.L Craig: Finte Tuned Universe, or Barrow, Tipler: The Anthropic Principle). Now this is something we can call too coincidental, same as the "thumb of the merchant" principle. When a merchant sells you a nice cloth, and when you buy it and examine it more closely it has a hole in it, and when you confornt the marchant with it he simply replies "Well, my thumb had to be somewhere on the cloth, and that it covered the hole exactly was a big a chance as it were anywhere else" This is just too coincidental. Or, if there is a gameshow where if you dont throw 100 times "6 eyes" after each other (so 100 chances and you have to throw 100 times 6 eyes) with a dice, you will be killed instantly. Then, when you throw 100 times 6 eyes wouldnt the public that watches the gameshow think that the game has been rigged. Of course the do. But the chance of 100 times 6 eyes is the same as 100 times any other combination (because the chance is always 1/6). Same as these things, its too coincidental that the universe is life permitting as it is, when all other possible outcomes of a universe (we can calculate this) would be not-suitable for life, and there seems to be no reason why these universes wouldnt be possible. So some Deity (is the usual conclusion) most have made it suitable for life.
3: Mathematical Arguments
The 2 arguments above are the most important I think, but William Dembski made another nice ID structure in his book The Design Inference. He made a mathematical procedure which allows you to calculate when something is necessity, chance, or design. He made a whole "machine" for it, and when you put something in it and you want to know wether it was produced by necessity, chance, or it was designed, then it will give you the correct outcome. And following his theory, the Universe must be designed. (If you like maths you should read that book).
Anti-Darwinian Arguments
Some people believe that arguments against darwinism are almost instantly arguments for creation. So they are attacking the holes in the fossil record, the lack of evidence, the lack of falsifiability of darwinism, and more of the sort.
Now, most of these arguments have been repeatadly used in the newer books of the JW. And I must say that the new Teological Argument and the ID theories are getting stronger. In the last 50 years we have found more evidence for the existance of God then ever before. I always find it very interesting to see how people react on this information. If a JW wants to start a conversation with someone who doesn't believe in God, he will usually come to one of these points (or he should in my opinion). I wrote this all down in a nuttshell and I can provide extensive research and articles and everything, but do you guys think, after reading some of this and maybe investigating it a bit, that a Creator exists or do you still have your doubts and why? For the record, I don't think the argument: "There is evil, so God cant exist" is one to discuss here, thats something I might start a thread on later. To be honest, for the design argument it doesnt matter wether the Creator was a good God, a bad god, a god who doesnt care about us anymore, or never did, aliens or whatever. All that matters are the signs of creation (ID is a scientific argument, not a theological one). So any thoughts, objections or anything else is welcome for my research ;)
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False Light....
by Bryan inthe watchtower bible & track society inc. says they are at times receiving "new light" from jehovah god.
but can it really be called "new" light?.
in 1889 the watchtower bible & track society inc. published:.
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Delta20
Well, I'll have to read those articles, havent read any Awake or Watchtowers in years (I have a CD with all of the lecture from 1970's to 1999). I'll look into it some more, but when you say that "They knew it was wrong because they asked to be disassociated as an NGO as soon as the bad ol' 'postates exposed them." Then me, being me, wonders why they did that if they really wanted to be an NGO. Is it really because of the bad publicity? Wouldnt that be easy to control with their l33t brainwashing tactics? Or is it maybe something else, maybe something positive that no one here has tried to see yet... ;)
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Watchtower Book Shelf CD-ROM...
by zeroday ini see that "quotes.
watchtower.ca" is no longer selling this cd.
does anyone know where i could get a copy.
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Delta20
Errr, I got it for free at a KH.... ;)
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New here
by Delta20 inmy name is jaron, 19 years old, i'm from the netherlands, and in about a month i am going to start joining the jw's meetings and i'm kind of looking forward to become a jw.
i can of course tell ya'll my entire spiritual story, but that would take an entire bookwork.
in a nuttshell: my father is an ex-jw, my half-sis (from an earlier marriage from my dads) is one of those "special pioneers", and i am jewish (my mom is jewish).
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Delta20
Judaism, Catholicism, several versions of Protestantism, latter day saints (mormonism), Islam, and some more.
Studied as in seeing if they are compatible with what I believe to be true when I read the bible, and from what Ive read/heard about the ones above they arent (I mostly studied Judaism ofcourse, and as I said I am also going to take Theology next year and study a lot of different religions in those classes). I don't know if I'll ever be done studying, but I havent come across anything more "truthworthy" then JW.