Posts by Check_Your

13

A good question to ask jws, and an important realization for me.

by Check_Your_Premises in

one of the things that i could never rationalize is the way the jws all claim to believe the same things.

i mean seriously, you can't get 4 people to decide on dinner!

how are you going to get 6 million to agree on countless and everchanging doctrinal pronouncements.

Check_Your_Premises

Exactly. Build up trust. Plant the seeds of doubt. Plant seeds to remove phobias. Help them to find out about OTHER mind control groups.

13

A good question to ask jws, and an important realization for me.

by Check_Your_Premises in

one of the things that i could never rationalize is the way the jws all claim to believe the same things.

i mean seriously, you can't get 4 people to decide on dinner!

how are you going to get 6 million to agree on countless and everchanging doctrinal pronouncements.

The question is "do you as a jw agree with everything". They will say yes, but of course the answer is no. SO then you explain to them that really they do, but "because it is God's org, you figure the org will change or you will". That is acceptable to them, and it is absolutely true. So insist and say, "you agree with absolutely everything?! You don't have anything you don't like?!"

Keep on them, and they will fess up.

When people are in cults, part of them wants to be free. If you listen, they will tell you how to free them.

44

A very disarming question you can ask jw's as an "unbelieving mate"

by Check_Your_Premises in

my wife got dunked, so i am an "unbelieving mate" (ubm).

however that name does offend me.

i do believe in god, and i am deeply grateful for christ's sacrifice.

Check_Your_Premises

They love bombed the heck out of me at the assembly when my wife got dunked. One of them asked me how I felt, I told him "I don't think it matters (to anyone here) what I think."

I never got so many invites to peoples homes for dinner and whatever.

Some weenie told me, "You need to make up your mind. If you are puffed up like a peacock, you end up a feather duster." He was quoting from the talk during the assembly. Everyone acted like it was so funny during the talk. I guess when you are a jw, you don't want anyone to think you are not faithful to God's org, because you think their jokes suck. Those jw's sure are a laugh riot.

Anyway, everyone apologized to me for what he said, and assured me his attitude was an extremely rare exception.. That is not what I hear absolutely every Sunday! That is when I got the idea to run around asking them if they thought I was prideful. Put 'em on the spot.

Anyway, so then we went to dinner, and they were all falling all over themselves to give me money. I refused and caught the waiter and paid the check.

When someone gives you something, you owe them dontcha know.

44

A very disarming question you can ask jw's as an "unbelieving mate"

by Check_Your_Premises in

my wife got dunked, so i am an "unbelieving mate" (ubm).

however that name does offend me.

i do believe in god, and i am deeply grateful for christ's sacrifice.

Check_Your_Premises

MJ,

Oh yeah, I forgot about your wife's blood transfusion... or lack thereof.

I had another question on another thread as well. I know my ideas won't apply to every situation, but I am trying to keep my fellow UBM's in the loop whenever something works for me.

Take care MJ

24

The Concept That Holds Jehovah's Witnesses Captive.

by Blueblades in

jw
friends

it isn't what jehovah's witnesses believe about the bible that has made them captives of a concept.

it is what they believe about the watchtower society that has done it.. there are two things that are necessary to compare.. 1) the society's interpretation of matthew 24:45--47, the most important scripture in watchtower theology.. with.

2) watchtower history as it relates to their interpretation of matthew 24:45--47, the most important event in watchtower history, 1919 jesus's appointment of them as god's organization.. from don cameron's book, "captives of a concept".. if you haven't read it yet, it's right up there with 'crises of conscience'.if you have loved ones that you want to help get out of this organization, this book is the key.. blueblades

Check_Your_Premises

"Captives to a Concept" is boring because it is a feable attempt to make some money. C of C, at least, was from the heart.

Well first of all, comparing the to books is like comparing apples to oranges. C of C was really just the story of Ray. It alluded to, and dealt with the most important question about the jws, but it took several hundred pages to do it. Don's book is really only meant to deal with the most important question, using ONLY jw literature, to prove that they could not possibly be TFDS. It is actually quite a clever argument, and it is particularly effective for jws because it really questions what Jesus (big medicine for a jw) could possibly have been thinking by choosing the org based on what they were teaching in 1919.

And furthermore, I really do have to stand up for Don here. That guy has been an invaluable help to me in my current situation. I have corresponded with him extensively, long after I bought his book. He was only trying to help me. He had nothing to gain. So criticize the book all you want. Criticize his arguments all you want. But don't quesiton his character or motives when you really have no idea what you are talking about.

44

A very disarming question you can ask jw's as an "unbelieving mate"

by Check_Your_Premises in

my wife got dunked, so i am an "unbelieving mate" (ubm).

however that name does offend me.

i do believe in god, and i am deeply grateful for christ's sacrifice.

Check_Your_Premises

So JGnat,

What is your classification... are you just an ubm, or are you the dreaded, feared, and often whispered about...

(dun-dun-duuuuuuuuuh)

Opposer!!!!

(cue scary music)

I figured you would like the question though, because you are also a person of faith.

44

A very disarming question you can ask jw's as an "unbelieving mate"

by Check_Your_Premises in

my wife got dunked, so i am an "unbelieving mate" (ubm).

however that name does offend me.

i do believe in god, and i am deeply grateful for christ's sacrifice.

Check_Your_Premises

I could see and sense it already. If you love your wife, it's just a matter of time. Resistance is futile, you will be absorbed.

You think I will join?! Naah. I have been indoctrinated before. I have heard to many lies. My default for everyone is BS. If what anyone say is corroborated by objective facts I will believe it... maybe!

As I have said before, if someone shows me a burning bush, if somone walks on some water, or if somebody makes some wine.... then maybe I would consider knocking on some doors.

44

A very disarming question you can ask jw's as an "unbelieving mate"

by Check_Your_Premises in

my wife got dunked, so i am an "unbelieving mate" (ubm).

however that name does offend me.

i do believe in god, and i am deeply grateful for christ's sacrifice.

Check_Your_Premises

I know they won't say I am a "pig" to my face. I also know they will think poorly of me. They have the truth. If someone doesn't agree with it, they must be choosing, out of bad motivation, to avoid it! They must be bad or prideful.

But by constantly making them say that, it makes it harder for them to engage in the thought, and even harder for them to act on that attitude.

It's that cognitive dissonance thing. It is hard to not have your thoughts and actions match up. Saying, "No I don't think you are prideful" is an action (with witnesses) that then makes it harder to have the thought that disagrees with that action.

Again, it is a minor point, and only one of a thousand that must be applied. But it does help gaurd us against a very common attitude.

13

A good question to ask jws, and an important realization for me.

by Check_Your_Premises in

one of the things that i could never rationalize is the way the jws all claim to believe the same things.

i mean seriously, you can't get 4 people to decide on dinner!

how are you going to get 6 million to agree on countless and everchanging doctrinal pronouncements.

Check_Your_Premises

One of the things that I could never rationalize is the way the jws all claim to believe the same things. I mean seriously, you can't get 4 people to decide on dinner! How are you going to get 6 million to agree on countless and everchanging doctrinal pronouncements. It simply can't be true! Yet they all claim that it is.

What I came to realize, and this isn't all that profound because ex-jws say this all the time, is that none of them agree with all of the teachings. They all have things they disagree with. But since they all think the teachings came from God's org, they figure "God will change the thing I disagree with, or He will change me."

So then I brought this up to my wife. At first the cult personality resisted but she had to admit that she doesn't agree with everything, and the attitude I described was accurate in her case. She even muttered something about "many of these minor things just come from men". That wasn't easy for her to say or realize.

A minor point, but try it out on your jw-cult-member loved ones.

44

A very disarming question you can ask jw's as an "unbelieving mate"

by Check_Your_Premises in

my wife got dunked, so i am an "unbelieving mate" (ubm).

however that name does offend me.

i do believe in god, and i am deeply grateful for christ's sacrifice.

Check_Your_Premises

My wife got dunked, so I am an "unbelieving mate" (UBM). However that name does offend me.

I do believe in God, and I am deeply grateful for Christ's sacrifice. I have deeply fear letting Him down. Furthermore, I believe that Satan is the personality behind all the woes we experience. I have experienced enough pain so that I have no desire to please him. I pray daily for God to make me a lover of truth, and if my heart is keeping me from truth, I ask him to change my heart. If I don't join it is not because I don't love God, or want to be apart of this world. I haven't joined because "right now", I have questions and disagreements with what is being taught.

I tell jw's the above. Then I ask them, "So if I don't join, are you going to think it is because I am a bad or prideful person?"

They can't say, "yes", because it is a stupid thing to say, and they also are afraid to offend you. I keep asking my wife this all the time. I ask people in the congregation this. I keep asking it.

The reason why it is effective is because by constantly assuring me they don't think I am "bad" or "prideful" makes it difficult for them to in fact think that about me.

It is a minor piece of advice, but I think it will help guard us UBM from a common and destructive thought pattern found among the jws in our lives

Check_Your_Premises

Posts by Check_Your_Premises