Posts by Check_Your

26

Christianity, Satan & Halloween

by Nellie in

forget about being a witness - i never, ever understood how mainstream christian people could justify participating in a celebration that is so overtly satanic.

while i recognize the ability to dress up in non-satanic costumes, the participation aspect bothers me.

of course, now, my kids want to trick or treat, but i just can't bring myself to say "yes.

Check_Your_Premises

Would god condemn you for doing something, such as participating in Halloween, when you have no evil intent in your mind or heart?

Exactly. Sin is not a fleshly act. It originates from within, in a decision to not love God or to not love your fellow man. If you are doing something that in no way originates with a desire to worship something besides God, then you are not practicing idolatry.

It is about candy.

And we are not subject to some list of spiritual regulations. To subject ourselves to such a list, now that would be idolatry!

CYP

63

SECRECY, Pros and Cons...UBM's, I'm asking you

by jgnat in

"unbelieving mates" (ubm's), this is for you.

i'm compiling a tips sheet for brand-new ubm's to help them deal with the stresses and strains of being in a religiously mixed marriage.

help me out by giving me your experience, both good and bad, about secrecy.

Check_Your_Premises

I know what you mean Carla.

It is such a painful thing. In a way, you almost have to experience it to understand. I remember way back in the days when they first showed up. I saw red flags, but when I sniffed around I saw all this stuff that just seemed over the top. They described these awful people and how they ruined families. It just didn't square with what I saw in these nice folks.

I think one of the things folks like us really need to perfect is the way we warn people about the org. It is really important to let them tell you what bothers them, and then bring up possible related issues they might not have considered. When we come at them screaming bloody murder (oops we are supposed to abstain from blood) about how awful they are, it makes us seem unhinged.

I just didn't see it coming though. And my wife just thinks it is me. I think most ubm's consider joining another cult, just to spite their jw spouse and put them through the same experiences. I think I would make an awesome branch davidian. I have excellent marksmanship. If it wasn't for the kids, and the additional damage it would do seeing both their folks go off the deep end, I would do it in a second.

The kids. The weak spot for the ubm. I for one did not work my whole life to build the means to provide all I never had for my children, only to have them filled with mind control garbage and be enslaved by a publishing company. It is hard for me not to get downright murderous when my kids are threatened.

CYP

63

SECRECY, Pros and Cons...UBM's, I'm asking you

by jgnat in

"unbelieving mates" (ubm's), this is for you.

i'm compiling a tips sheet for brand-new ubm's to help them deal with the stresses and strains of being in a religiously mixed marriage.

help me out by giving me your experience, both good and bad, about secrecy.

Check_Your_Premises

Great questions JGNAT!

Are you open with your partner about your participation on this board? No Way! To do so in my opinion would violate trust. Furthermore, it would allow my jw to gain insights into my connivings.
Do you hide your reference materials from your partner? Absolutely. Trust again.
Have you had any close calls, and if so, describe them? I cleaned up an old account that she knew I usedem with ubm emails. One day I was opening it up and she walked up. It should have been ok, but I took a deep breath before the inbox opened. Luckily there were no ubm emails!
If you are secretive about your anti-JW activities, do you plan on coming clean with your partner at some time? I doubt I ever will completely. I could see doing this only after she were out... way out.
If you do plan on coming clean, when do you anticipate doing so? When she is out.
If your partner is aware of your anti-JW activity, how do they react? When I read apostate books openly in the past, it became a big scandal in the hall, and made everyone uncomfortable.
Any stories to share?

I guess my summary of advice on this would contain two basic premises. First of all, to assist your loved one in gaining a new perspective you have to have their trust. THis is step one. Without this, there is no step 2, 3, 4, 5...9487373. Now you can say you are only trying to get a second opinoin, but then anything you mention will automatically be suspect. Apostate books are written by Satan in their eyes. This all then speaks to the need for some level of secrecy. You can't overtly say that you are trying to help steer them out of the org and expect them to trust you in any way.

On the other hand I am a firm beleiver in honesty. We have to be honest with ourselves, and anytime we engage in deciet even by omission, we take up a burden that has to be maintained at all times! I would recommend therefore, to make the level of secrecy to a minimum. I therefore have cultivated a personality that is acceptable to the witness, but completely truthful and accurate. This is an absoute necessity because you have to have a legitmate reason for NOT being a jw. To the jw, their paradigm is God's paradigm. To not believe it out of ignorance is acceptable because ignorance can be changed. To reject it is to reject God. To reject God is to embrace Satan. To embrace Satan is to become the enemy. Make your life easier. Embrace ignorance.

My persona is this: I am only interested in truth. Whatever the truth is, I will accept it. If the jw are right, their teachings will withstand any scrutiny, and I will be forced to accept it. I am a Christian because I have faith in my salvation through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. I don't see any scriptural account of salvation, or a specific statement that stipulates that joining a certain group of imperfect people is a requirement of salvation. I therefore simply see no reason why I need to be a witness. I never criticize the witnesses or even say they are wrong. I only say I don't agree with this or that. I am completely open and interested in anything they have to say. I go to their meetings. I study with them. I befriend them. But I doggedly insist that I only will follow my own conscience.

This is completely honest, it is a completely fair and scripturally irrefuteable position. Furthermore it puts the witness in the uncomfortable position of trying to show you that despite the fact there is no requirement to be a jw, it is nevertheless something you "just have to do". They will attempt to show it is required, but it is pure sophistry, and so far easily refuted.

The most honest thing though, is to be honest about your emotions. You are likely going to be hurt or angry by your experiences with a jw loved one. You do need to make those feelings known or they will fester into resentment and rage. If you develop these sorts of feelings, any efforts to help the jw will be hamstrung. So by all means, discuss your feelings. Just be very careful to focus your discussions on the individual jw, do not let the org become the focus.

Caveat: If children are involved the matter is much more complicated!

11

duality: there are two people in there!

by telltruth in

jw
friends

good day everyone.

have any of you, and i'm sure you have, noticed two distinct personalities to the jw.

one that tows the company line so to speak and the other, the real person asserting their true self?

Check_Your_Premises

This is an interesting subject, and I think one of the shortcomings of Hassan's book, RTB, is that it gives a very basic explanation of this phenomenon.

First of all, I think it is something we can all relate to. As a previous poster mentioned, we all have different personas. We have our "work persona", our "out with the guys" persona, our "religious persona". We probably all can relate to the uncomfortable feeling we get when these worlds collide. For instance I can recall drinking and having a good time at my brother's wedding. I was in my "out with the guys" persona. Then my grandmother tapped me on the shoulder. She didn't say anything, or act in any way dissaprovingly. Nevetheless, I was suddenly ashamed.

I think many of our personalites are exclusive and even contradictory.

The reason it is important to understand the phenomenon if you are wanting to help someone be open to the flaws in the jw paradigm, is that they are most open when they are not in their jw persona. THink of it as a sheild. When they are in jw-mode, their sheild is up. When they are not, it is down.

I think Jgnat brought up an excellent point, that anyone hoping to open a jw's eyes, will need to become accomplished and aware of how to manipulate a jw in and out of this mode.

Another thought I had about this is that there is some inertia involved. I think the longer a person spends in one persona, the more difficult it is to switch back to the other. Furthermore, when a person spends more time in a persona that is in conflict with another, the difficulty in switching is more profound.

The trick I think with a jw is to get them out of jw mode, but do it in a way that when the subject comes back around to something that contradicts the jw paradigm, it doesn't trigger their jw personality. This is a highly skilled bit of jiu-jitsu or maybe ballet, that I am not sure I have a good idea how to employ. Furthermore, it requires a level of sophistication that is difficult to realistically inject into a spontaneous conversation. To attempt to force it into a conversation is to risk coming off like a salesman. This subject is definitely an area where I lack a solid understanding.

CYP

51

tions about hello everyone, i'm new here,,,

by telltruth in

jw
friends

hello everyone.

have recently met someone, amazing person!

however have many questions about jw's and wt.

Check_Your_Premises

Hey telltruth.

I hope you are being careful about not having children, if that is a matter of concern. Children bring a weak or ex-jw's phobias roaring back with a vengence. Be very careful in that regard.

A minor protocol note; it is best I have found to start a new thread when the subject changes. Eventually a thread gets so long that nobody wants to wade through it. There are exceptions. Those who are following your story will recognize your name. And try to make the new thread as specific as possible. There are a million, "im new here" titles. It will help us all track your progress.

I will say that you probably have a good opportunity to help this person, since she doesn't mind breaking the taboo of being with a worldy guy. That likely means she is open to breaking other taboos. The key goal is getting her to realize that this is not the right religion. That is her center of gravity. If that is not removed, all the other jw behavior is just waiting for a moment of uncertainty to come rushing back.

Make her feel safe, loved, and trusting of you. As long as she feels that way with you, she won't feel the need to rush back into the arms of her abusive ex.

CYP

51

Why DOESN'T Ray Franz post here?

by AlmostAtheist in

jw
friends

silly question.

he wrote the best known ex-jw book.

the title is even known among faithful dubs.. it's hard to imagine that he's not interested in the topic.

Check_Your_Premises

I sent him an email once thanking him for his book and how much it helps so many of us who get bulldozed by the runaway train that is the delusional world of the jw.

I got the sense that he really didn't want to be associated with any anti-jw type thing. He called a spade a spade. He doesn't feel the need to pile on. He is also aware that there are a lot of misplaced and unecessary negativity directed at the jw and it's members. It is hard not to be negative when you are on the receiving end of their toxic delusions, but ultimately they are just what he called them, "victims of victims" and "captives of a concept". He probably just doesn't want to be apart of anything like that.

Plus he is not in the best of health. The last email he responded with gave me a detailed description of his health problems.

I love Ray but he isn't the worlds greatest summarizer.

39

Ideas for bumper stickers/signs...what can you come up with?

by AuldSoul in

jw
friends

from kid-a's post on another thread: millions once living are now dead!.

607 bc?.

watchtower bedded the beast (1991-2001).

Check_Your_Premises

Oh well what doesn't kill you...

...is just prolonging the inevitable.

54

The end is nigh

by IP_SEC in

do you guys think we are sufficiantly along in the month of october to be able to say that the end isnt coming in the fall of '05?.

when i was a dub i really thought the end was coming this month.. 1975+30= 2005. if adam was 30 when eve was created this would be the end of the 5000 years of since jahs last rest.. eve created, jah rest for 1000 years (1k years is as one day to jovah) he picks up work again 1000 years after eve is created.

now in 2005 that means he has just 1 more "day" until the next great 1k years sabbath.

Check_Your_Premises

I won't respond or mock Elijah/BrownBoy. His rants can be heard in any mental ward in any city. He needs institutionalized care. I hear his son is in town. I wish his son would intervene on his behalf.

Yeah. He makes for an easy target.

Sometimes it is hard for us reformed smart-asses to remember that people who set us on edge are not objects. When these faithful slave types start in, it naturally reminds folks here of how much damage has been caused by such claims in our own lives.

Our natural instinct is to make fun. Wisdom (to the extent we possess it) will dictate that we remember that these are real people, not symbols of our anger. Furthermore it is important to remember that some folks have loved ones with similar problems. We have to consider their feelings as well.

CYP

39

Ideas for bumper stickers/signs...what can you come up with?

by AuldSoul in

jw
friends

from kid-a's post on another thread: millions once living are now dead!.

607 bc?.

watchtower bedded the beast (1991-2001).

Check_Your_Premises

MJ,

Congrats on Jedi! Or maybe not. It means we still have to be here.

Nothing against all you fine folks, but I would count myself blessed to have never heard of the jw.

CYP

39

Ideas for bumper stickers/signs...what can you come up with?

by AuldSoul in

jw
friends

from kid-a's post on another thread: millions once living are now dead!.

607 bc?.

watchtower bedded the beast (1991-2001).

Check_Your_Premises

The millions quote is so full of possibilities.

I remember I saw a picture in a KH of all these people at one of Joe's talks with that big banner displayed. I wondered how they could hang that picture without noting the irony that almost everyone in that picture is now dead.

Check_Your_Premises

Posts by Check_Your_Premises