Posts by Check_Your

16

What is up with God requiring vindication?

by M.J. in

i've related before that i have started studying with a superbrother from the local congo.

in the knowledge book we came across this quote:

*** kl chap.

Check_Your_Premises

a little back-and-forth is always fun in good company

I sure wish everyone could take it that way. I get a kick out of challenging my most deeply held beliefs.

58

Question for agnostics and/or atheists

by sonnyboy in

jw
friends

i've just recently declared my agnosticism to myself and to one other person in my life.

i don't necessarily consider myself an atheist because i believe there very well may be some higher power or non carbon based entities in existence with 'godlike' abilities.

my question is, do you still find yourself secretly believing in god?

Check_Your_Premises

"What if I'm wrong about this and he one day confronts me with it?"

I don't think a just God could blame you if you read His book, and just didn't get it....

....if you exercised due diligence in seeking Him out.

Furthermore, I think salvation is nothing more than recognizing we live in a world that has rebelled against Him, and deciding you don't want to be apart of that rebellion anymore. Jesus took care of the rest.

I used to be an agnostic, so I understand the questions you are asking. I recommend "Mere Christianity" to you. It was written by C.S. Lewis, and explains some of the ideas that moved him from atheism to Christian.

16

What is up with God requiring vindication?

by M.J. in

i've related before that i have started studying with a superbrother from the local congo.

in the knowledge book we came across this quote:

*** kl chap.

Check_Your_Premises

to me, it's a moot point of sorts. that "we" are right about the natural order of things, and "others" are wrong.

Well I didn't get into all sorts of details about HOW we worship that deity, or what the story of that Diety in relation to mankind if that's what you mean.

I am more of an adherent to "Mere Christianity" in reference to C.S. Lewis book of the same name. For instance, is the world a hole because a talking snake tempted some dumb bimbo into eating an apple? You aren't going to get me to go to that mat on that one.

I do think there is a natural order in the sense that there is a Creator, there is a natural law that we all understand and expect from others, which is that we should treat others as we wish to be treated. I don't think mankind has ever been without those two ideas.

16

What is up with God requiring vindication?

by M.J. in

i've related before that i have started studying with a superbrother from the local congo.

in the knowledge book we came across this quote:

*** kl chap.

Check_Your_Premises

Tetra,

The danger of analogies....

is they only hold up for so long.

So you are criticizing the concept of a God that gives free will and then destroys those who exercise it in a that God doesn't like?

A little off topic, but I am sure MJ wouldn't mind a short aside.

I believe that God created us in His image. To me, that means we share His nature, which is the ability to create. In my mind, the ability to create and having a free-will go hand in hand. However to have a free will and creativity means we can conceive of the idea of going against the will of our Creator.

So what is His will ultimately. It is that we acknowledge His (and therefore our) place in the universe. The other thing that He wills is for us to treat eachother as we wish to be treated. That is really about it. So our creative nature and free-will were meant to be given free reign beyond that.

There are those that would say that having any restrictions at all goes contradictory to the idea of a free will. But when you really think about it, these "restrictions" are not really a sanction on our freedoms. Rather they are meant to provide an order that allows our free will and creativity to flourish. For example some may consider traffic laws to be an infringement on their freedoms. But without those laws, it is unlikely that they would have the ability to even travel a short distance. So which situation really allows the individual more freedom? Are we more free if we all get to drive however we want, or are we more free if there are some shared rules that produces an ordered system which , more times than not, allows us to reach our destination safely.

Now what do I think of the concept of a God that destroys the disobedient? Well, I guess that isn't a very loving thought by itself. But we do have to consider that by being disobedient they are refusing to live according to the natural order (which is God is the boss, rather than themselves) and/or they are refusing to do to others as they would have done to them. Both of those violations go together to produce all sorts of misery. I do think it is quite loving for God to finally step in and prevent those folks from continuing to harm others. I think "justice" is the word that comes to mind. I often wonder if paradise isn't all that wonderful and perfect like we imagine, maybe there just arent' any a-holes to deal with. Maybe we still lose our car-keys, but at least we don't have to worry about some a-hole keying up our paint job.

Or maybe I am some soft-headed boob, who has some pathological need to believe in God. What's next, the tooth fairy! I can't prove God exists of course. Nobody can. But just because something can't proven, doesn't mean it isn't true. And even though I can't prove God exists, neither can you prove He doesn't. I agree that the burden of proof would ultimately have to belong with an omnipotent being. But to completely refuse that there could possibly be a Creator, leaves you with an awful lot of explaining to do as well.

Hope you don't think I am taking after you. You asked some good questions, I am simply responding with all due respect. People get so touchy around here!

16

What is up with God requiring vindication?

by M.J. in

i've related before that i have started studying with a superbrother from the local congo.

in the knowledge book we came across this quote:

*** kl chap.

Check_Your_Premises

(Nevawuzza! Everytime I say that I laugh)

16

What is up with God requiring vindication?

by M.J. in

i've related before that i have started studying with a superbrother from the local congo.

in the knowledge book we came across this quote:

*** kl chap.

Check_Your_Premises

Whenever the subject comes up, such that it appears God needs something from us (love, devotion, ), I always apply the following analogy, and it usually ends up making sense to me.

Why do I tell my children they need to thank me for things? Do I really need the appreciation of a little child? Of course I would like it, and it brings me joy, but I am a mature adult. Does this appreciation fulfill any need I have? Of course not. So actually the purpose of me requiring my children to say thank you is not for me. It is for them. It is for them to understand the reality of the world, and that all they have didn't just appear. It came from my effort, and when I am gone they will have to be able duplicate my efforts and take care of themselves.

Of course God doesn't need any vindication. It is necessary, only for our sake, that He is vindicated in our minds.

What do you think?

37

Question for Christians and ex-JW: How is salvation attained?

by Check_Your_Premises in

i am a rather newly minted christian.

i have been exposed to many different beliefs besides the jw, but i tend to take more of a "mere christianity" view of salvation.. here is a summary of that view.. i believe there is a god, evidenced by an innate natural law that most understand, aspire to, and expect from others.

laws require a lawgiver.

Check_Your_Premises

can't answer for the YHWH Witnesses

YHWH witnesses. That is funny.

37

Question for Christians and ex-JW: How is salvation attained?

by Check_Your_Premises in

i am a rather newly minted christian.

i have been exposed to many different beliefs besides the jw, but i tend to take more of a "mere christianity" view of salvation.. here is a summary of that view.. i believe there is a god, evidenced by an innate natural law that most understand, aspire to, and expect from others.

laws require a lawgiver.

Check_Your_Premises

From another guy I know.

I am a rather newly minted Christian. I have been exposed to many different beliefs besides the jw, but I tend to take more of a "Mere Christianity" view of salvation.

Here is a summary of that view.

I believe there is a God, evidenced by an innate natural law that most understand, aspire to, and expect from others.

I agree.

Romans 1:19-23:

19 ¶ because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,

23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

That there is a God is evidenced by the fact that all peoples around the world worship some form of a deity, and that they bury their dead.

Laws require a Lawgiver. Despite our understanding of this law, we are unable to meet it.

We have a creator, and by order of creation, God sets the rules and we are required to follow:

Ge 1:1 ¶ In the beginning God created...

Isa 40:28 Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth Does not become weary or tired. His understanding is inscrutable.

Isa 45:18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, [But] formed it to be inhabited), "I am the LORD, and there is none else."

Acts 17:24-31

17:28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His offspring.’

17:30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all everywhere should repent,"

Ro 1:25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

Eph 3:9 and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God, who created all things;

Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created, [both] in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-all things have been created by Him and for Him.

Re 4:11 "Worthy art Thou, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for Thou didst create all things, and because of Thy will they existed, and were created."

Job chapters 38-41

I don't want to get bogged down in what is allegory

Allegory:

1.a. The representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form.

1.b. A story, picture, or play employing such representation. John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress and Herman Melville's Moby Dick are allegories.

2. A symbolic representation: The blindfolded figure with scales is an allegory of justice.

[Middle English allegorie, from Latin allgoria, from Greek, from allgorein, to interpret allegorically : allos, other; see al-1 in Indo-European Roots + agoreuein, to speak publicly (from agora, marketplace. See ger- in Indo-European Roots).]

and what literally took place. But there was a rebellion of sorts, and now we are living in "occupied" territory.

We are told to be saved from this perverse generation (Acts 2:40)

Satan is called the prince of the power of the air (Eph 2:2)

Satan is called the god of this world (2Co 4:4)

The very creation groans for its redemption (Ro 8:20-22)

Christ's kingdom, which is ours by association, is not of this world (Jn 18:36)

Nevertheless, this is our Father's world (De 10:14)

God will restore order, but He has provided a way, through his Son for us to cease our participation in this rebellion. I see salvation therefore as fundamentally a rejection of this order and an acceptance of God's sovergnty.

I agree. I would go on to say that even though it seems like this world is out of control and God is not really in charge, the fact is that this is all part of His big plan.

First, all mankind, without exception, are enemies with God (Ro 8:7)

Sin is part of our fibre, part of our essence (Ps 51:5)

Salvation is from our sinful nature, not merely from hell (Mt 1:21)

Salvation is being created new - brand new (2Co 5:17)

When we are born again, we are reconciled with God (Ro 5:10)

We are now ambassadors (fitting in nicely with your previous point (2Co 5:20)

Revelation 20 describes the everlasting destruction of unbelievers

Revelation 21-22 describe the everlasting state of the worshippers of God

Now I took a very heavy subject and distilled it to a few sentences. It will be very difficult to keep this thread on track if I don't really spell out my question here. I don't want to get bogged down in a faith vs. works discussion, despite it's importance, although I don't know if it is avoidable.

It's really not avoidable. In order to be saved, we must be in need of salvation. If we could work and earn a favorable position with God, then Christ's death was for naught. Salvation which adds anything whatsoever to God's complete unmerited favor, destroys the message of the good news and the gospel becomes "a different gospel". God explains this in Galatians.

Ephesians 2:8-10 says,

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

The very faith itself is given by God

9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast.

The idea is that man can boast of no part in his salvation, even his own faith, for if his faith came from himself, then he would be able to say that he had some portion - even if it's a small one - in his own salvation.

10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Before our new birth, we had no good works. Even the good things that we could boast in, such as helping the poor, fighting crime, etc., are not considered good because they were not done with God's glory in mind.

We are His workmanship

We were created (redeemed) for good works

God prepared in eternity past all that we see working out today

Paul support this in his letter to the Philippians (3:4-10). He was faultless according to Moses Law - not many could say that, and yet he considered it all dung (last part of verse 8).

Again to the Galatians, he asks, "Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith" (3:2)

And again to the Roman church he says that there is NONE righteous, so that not one person on earth can say they are good enough to merit a right standing before the Living God (Ro 3:2)

There are many more examples, but you get the point.

I understand the state of "being a Christian" is a journey, not a destination. I am not so much interested then, in this, discussion with how faith is maintained, but rather how it is first attained.

There are two aspects to "being a Christian". On the one hand, it's something that just happens. As Jesus told the lady at the well in Jn 4:14, "whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst" (the word for drink is a one-time action in the Greek). On the other hand, we are to build upon the foundation that has been laid 2Pe 1:5-11). We are holy (1Co 3:16-17; Eph 1:4)), therefore we are to be holy (1Pe 1:15-16).

These two aspects make up the journey. First, I am made a brand new creature - that's the positional sanctification. Once I am a new creature, I am exhorted to strive toward perfection - that's the practical sanctification.

I'd like to cite just two passage for this.

First is Eph 4:23-24, "and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth. The idea is that we should strive to make the way of redemption very secure in our own minds. I won't go into the subject of eternal security, but will only say that if we do not build upon that which has been laid, i.e. the cornerstone of our salvation through Jesus Christ, then we could get to the miserable place of not knowing for sure whether or not we have been born again.

The next passage, 2 Pe 1:5-11, helps explain that. Note in verse 9 that the one has forgotten his purification from his former sins. What a sad state to be in.

What I am really trying to get at is what is required for a person to cross that threshold from not worthy of salvation to being worthy of salvation? Are there certain actions required, or is it simply a change in the state of the mind?

I don't thinks it's either. I think this is where so many people err. The fact is, there is none righteous, no not one. There is none who seeks God. Rather, God calls us with an irresistible calling (Jn 10:16). The work is completely His. While we were yet sinners, Christ died for the ungodly. And having called us, He alone is able to save us to the uttermost (He 7:15), having died once for all for sins (He 9:12).

This is why Jesus told Nicodemus , "You must be born again" (Jn 3:3).

When the Jews were cut to the quick, they pleaded with Peter, What shall we do!" (Acts 2:37) His answer was simply, "Repent". A very similar question was asked of Paul by the jailer. And the answer was, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved" (Acts 16:30-31).

The key in all this is in the connection between repent and believe. What does it mean? Believe is tied very closely to repent. Without repentance, there can be no salvation.

Repentance means to turn. We must turn from our sins and turn to God. When we do this, we do so in faith (belief) that God will forgive us and make us new - brand new.

If we are not willing to turn from our sins, then we do not truly have faith (belief) that leads to salvation. The demons believe and tremble (Ja 2:19), but they have not been provided an opportunity for salvation, and in fact they despise God and work against his plan.

True faith means we've past from death to life (Ro 6:13), and that can only be accomplished by the renewing work of the Holy Spirit on an utterly unworthy soul.

The Spirit gives new life and the sinner responds with faith.
Since the faith comes from God, it is considered living faith and consequently produces fruit, which is manifested through good works.
First John is full of tests for someone who claims to be a Christian. A good exercise would be to read it through and highlight all the tests.

What is an Orthodox Christian view? What is a jw view?

I can't answer for the YHWH Witnesses, but I think I've explained my position pretty clearly. Let me know if I've been less than completely clear.

If we are not willing to turn from our sins, then we do not truly have faith (belief) that leads to salvation. The demons believe and tremble (Ja 2:19), but they have not been provided an opportunity for salvation, and in fact they despise God and work against his plan.

37

Question for Christians and ex-JW: How is salvation attained?

by Check_Your_Premises in

i am a rather newly minted christian.

i have been exposed to many different beliefs besides the jw, but i tend to take more of a "mere christianity" view of salvation.. here is a summary of that view.. i believe there is a god, evidenced by an innate natural law that most understand, aspire to, and expect from others.

laws require a lawgiver.

Check_Your_Premises

My salvation is in the arms of a beautiful youn lady with loving friends around.

I used to share this view.

But "All roads lead to drugs or Jesus". My drug was women. So just a heads up you won't find that road to be any more satisfying than any other drug. They are one of the more dangerous ones also. Diseases, illigitimate children, child support, and if you marry them they can take half your stuff! And as a guy told me once, "no matter how hot she is, there is some guy, somewhere, who is sick of her S**T"

I was an athiest though, and there are two questions that I could never get rid of, and I have a feeling you will have the same experience, because they are pretty universal questions.

1. How do I find any meaning to my existence, that matters in anyway, outside myself.

2. How do I determine what is right and what is wrong, again in a universal way, outside myself?

But you are 17. All you know is you have a boner and you aren't afraid to use it.

Believe me, I understand. I remember 17 VERY well.

37

Question for Christians and ex-JW: How is salvation attained?

by Check_Your_Premises in

i am a rather newly minted christian.

i have been exposed to many different beliefs besides the jw, but i tend to take more of a "mere christianity" view of salvation.. here is a summary of that view.. i believe there is a god, evidenced by an innate natural law that most understand, aspire to, and expect from others.

laws require a lawgiver.

Check_Your_Premises

Salvation is not attained, it's given as a free gift. You don't do anything to get it. I reckon that's the neatest thing i've ever heard.

Are you saying nothing has to be done? When I say "done", I include making up ones mind. None are to be excluded? Doesn't one at least have to make up their mind that God exists, Jesus sacrificed Himself, and repent from their sins? Note, I did not say successfully repent, for none can, but in a persons heart they have turned away from their sinful actions?

Check_Your_Premises

Posts by Check_Your_Premises