Posts by Check_Your

30

How I am dealing with "The Bible says you have to go to all the meetings!!"

by Check_Your_Premises in

here is the basic approach i am going to use.

my wife is a newly dunked dub, and my kids have been hearing the propaganda for about 3 years now.

i figured out it was a cult about 6 months ago.

Check_Your_Premises

Nice avatar by the way...

The problem is that JW's think the Bible was written for, to and about them.

Boy, aint that the friggin truth!

"Audacity, always audacity!"

30

How I am dealing with "The Bible says you have to go to all the meetings!!"

by Check_Your_Premises in

here is the basic approach i am going to use.

my wife is a newly dunked dub, and my kids have been hearing the propaganda for about 3 years now.

i figured out it was a cult about 6 months ago.

Check_Your_Premises

I know they won't agree. Basically it is to give myself cover.

I keep getting the attitude so I have to address it. It also offers the opportunity to present some genuine Christian teachings such as salvation coming not through works but through faith.

Baby steps.

30

How I am dealing with "The Bible says you have to go to all the meetings!!"

by Check_Your_Premises in

here is the basic approach i am going to use.

my wife is a newly dunked dub, and my kids have been hearing the propaganda for about 3 years now.

i figured out it was a cult about 6 months ago.

Check_Your_Premises

I like that one Terry. I have also been reflecting on the differences between what is descriptive vs subscriptive.

Thanks!

Keep fighting the fine fight of the faithless!

30

How I am dealing with "The Bible says you have to go to all the meetings!!"

by Check_Your_Premises in

here is the basic approach i am going to use.

my wife is a newly dunked dub, and my kids have been hearing the propaganda for about 3 years now.

i figured out it was a cult about 6 months ago.

Here is the basic approach I am going to use. My wife is a newly dunked dub, and my kids have been hearing the propaganda for about 3 years now. I figured out it was a cult about 6 months ago. Now the big deal lately is the kids want to know why I don't go to the meetings. They think I am some sort of jerk or something!

"The Bible says you have to go to all the meetings" they tell me.

Here is the rough outline on our upcoming Bible study.

Go through Jw explanation. (am I missing anything?)

Heb 10:24-25 "...not forsaking the gathering together..."

Doesn’t say regularly. It doesn’t give you a number of times to get together. It doesn’t tell you how often. It doesn’t even say you have to. It says don’t forsake.

Heb 13:17 "...be submissive to those taking the lead..."

Does this mean, "do whatever they say?" Does it mean you have to obey them if you disagree with them on somehting that isn't explicitly stated in the Bible?

Nowhere does it say you have to go to 5 meetings. I think we have to be careful about saying the Bible says we have to do this or that when it doesn't.

A bunch of don't add or subtract from the word of God verses

Deut 4:2, Deut 12:32, Prov 30:6, Matthew 15:6-9, 13

I AM NOT SAYING THE JW ARE WRONG FOR SAYING WE HAVE TO GO TO EVERY MEETING.

Why do you think I would be uncomfortable saying that? I will ask. (This opens up an opportunity to cite Matthew 7:1-4 "judge not lest ye be judged" and John ?:? "...he among you without sin cast the first stone" this demonstrates a more non judgemental approach as oppposed to the "if you are not a jw you are from Satan" approach)

I am just saying I don't think that is what the Bible says. I also think we have to be careful about thinking such things are what is most important. The danger is that we might think our salvation is because we do some required duty like going to meetings.

Ephesians2:8-10 "...by grace you are saved lest any man should boast"

Without HIM, all of our works of righteousness are as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6).

Summary

So you see it is not that gathering with other Christians isn't important, or that such things don't help build up our faith. I just think it is not a good idea to say the bible says we have to go to 5 meetings when it doesn't. I also think we have to be very careful that we don't think such things can save us, or make us better then people who don't go to 5 meetings. When we do that we are saying that Christ's sacrifice wasn't enough. We are saying that we could save ourselves and we didn't even need him!

Galatians 2:21 "...if justified by law, then Christ died for nothing..."

42

Being pressured to goto meetings,

by crankytoe in

hi everyone, all i wanted was a bible study, now we're at the point where we read 2 chapters in knowledge book, and the discussion turns to how i forsaking the inciting with others to worship,(something like that).

is there anything i can say to get them to accept that i'll go when/if i feel like going?.

this past weekend, they kept asking me what obstacles were in my way, i said i haven't had time, they go yeah you say that but there has to be something else, .

Check_Your_Premises

Here is the basic approach I am going to use. My wife is a newly dunked dub, and my kids have been hearing the propaganda for about 3 years now. I figured out it was a cult about 6 months ago. Now the big deal lately is the kids want to know why I don't go to the meetings. They think I am some sort of jerk or something!

"The Bible says you have to go to all the meetings" they tell me.

Here is the rough outline on our upcoming Bible study.

Go through Jw explanation. (am I missing anything?)

Heb 10:24-25 "...not forsaking the gathering together..."

Doesn’t say regularly. It doesn’t give you a number of times to get together. It doesn’t tell you how often. It doesn’t even say you have to. It says don’t forsake.

Heb 13:17 "...be submissive to those taking the lead..."

Does this mean, "do whatever they say?" Does it mean you have to obey them if you disagree with them on somehting that isn't explicitly stated in the Bible?

Nowhere does it say you have to go to 5 meetings. I think we have to be careful about saying the Bible says we have to do this or that when it doesn't.

A bunch of don't add or subtract from the word of God verses

Deut 4:2, Deut 12:32, Prov 30:6, Matthew 15:6-9, 13

I AM NOT SAYING THE JW ARE WRONG FOR SAYING WE HAVE TO GO TO EVERY MEETING.

Why do you think I would be uncomfortable saying that? I will ask. (This opens up an opportunity to cite Matthew 7:1-4 "judge not lest ye be judged" and John ?:? "...he among you without sin cast the first stone" this demonstrates a more non judgemental approach as oppposed to the "if you are not a jw you are from Satan" approach)

I am just saying I don't think that is what the Bible says. I also think we have to be careful about thinking such things are what is most important. The danger is that we might think our salvation is because we do some required duty like going to meetings.

Ephesians2:8-10 "...by grace you are saved lest any man should boast"

Without HIM, all of our works of righteousness are as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6).

Summary

So you see it is not that gathering with other Christians isn't important, or that such things don't help build up our faith. I just think it is not a good idea to say the bible says we have to go to 5 meetings when it doesn't. I also think we have to be very careful that we don't think such things can save us, or make us better then people who don't go to 5 meetings. When we do that we are saying that Christ's sacrifice wasn't enough. We are saying that we could save ourselves and we didn't even need him!

Galatians 2:21 "...if justified by law, then Christ died for nothing..."

61

On a macro level, the Witnesses are pretty harmless

by logansrun in

jw
friends

warning: this post may be damaging to your biases.. it seems to me that the "danger" the witnesses pose to larger society is, well, pretty damn small.

just think about it: the witnesses are almost not involved in politics at all, except the occassional "freedom of religion and speech" issues they take to various courts, issues i am happy to support the witnesses in, even if i strongly disagree with their beliefs.

you will not see jws supporting banning abortions or gay marriages or a whole host of other civil liberties and freedoms that evangelicals rally around like the village people searching for frankenstein's monster.

Check_Your_Premises

Logan,

That is why I made such a point of how much I appreciate your effort for a balanced perspective. It is sorely lacking! And as I said, I have been personally harmed by that lack of perspective.

I figure the amount of bitterness that folks have is a reflection of the extent they have been harmed. I figure you haven't been harmed to bad. I could be mistaken. Maybe you are just good at rationalizing your experiences.

For me this is a death match. I look at my little 2 year old daughter, and it makes me sick to think of them getting their hooks into her. But we have to not hate our enemy. That is when we turn into them. Again, why I appreciate your perspective.

61

On a macro level, the Witnesses are pretty harmless

by logansrun in

jw
friends

warning: this post may be damaging to your biases.. it seems to me that the "danger" the witnesses pose to larger society is, well, pretty damn small.

just think about it: the witnesses are almost not involved in politics at all, except the occassional "freedom of religion and speech" issues they take to various courts, issues i am happy to support the witnesses in, even if i strongly disagree with their beliefs.

you will not see jws supporting banning abortions or gay marriages or a whole host of other civil liberties and freedoms that evangelicals rally around like the village people searching for frankenstein's monster.

Check_Your_Premises

Logan,

I would say you are right in a sense.

Many former witnesses are very bitter people, and actually do quite a bit of damage to their cause because their over the top rhetoric does not match the reality that most outside the know see. If I had run into calmer heads when I first began to turn a critical eye to the watchtower, I probably wouldn't be in this situation. Pretty much all the info I found was surrounded by hysterics. I always do appreciate your calls for former witnesses to get some perspective and get on with their lives.

I would also agree that if you compare the ills brought on by this relatively small sect compared to other much larger religions throughout histor, or even compared to the various afflictions that plague mankind, the wt pales in comparison.

On the other hand the witnesses do have a bad reputation for breaking up families, talking people out of all sorts of practical actions in their best interests, and causing unecessary deaths through bad medical advice.

What I am getting at is much of the damage done by the jw is below the radar screen. It might not be that the damage they do is so small, but rather it is not noticeable or completely knowable. The images from Jonestown shocked the world. Most barely notice the brief snippet in the local newspaper every few years of the strange person who refused blood for their tragically dead child.

But what if you stacked all the witness kool-aid drinkers through the decades side by side. How many people died refusing vaccinations, organ transplants, and blood transfusions? How many people killed themselves when everyone they ever knew stopped talking to them because they just couldn't quiet the questions in their heads. How many nameless, faceless fathers/mothers/sons/daughters were completely shut out of their loved ones life because they didn't want to surrender their God given mind to another? These are just a few types of victims that have been needlessly created out of the need to support this silly idea of divine appointment. What about all the lost moments, and lost experiences. Those are as irretreivable as all of those misguided dead. To quote a Clive Barker book title, the jws are "Thiefs of Always". Get every victim. Get them all together in one place. Take their picture. I think that impossible, incalcuable image would silence, sicken and haunt us all.

I am glad you got out. More importantly I am glad you have moved on. For me the greatest tragedy would be for my children to have their own free mind taken from them. I know you don't take much to such ideas. But I do wonder how you would feel if you had a child, and they were being stalked and manipulated by this cult. How would you feel then about free thought. I can't help but wonder that.

I guess it could be fun to imagine this stuff in theory. But for so many of us it is to deeply personal, and extremely painful. I just can't bring myself to say they are no big deal in any sense.

Thanks for trying to help us keep some perspective though. Hating them won't do anyone any good.

Take care.

17

Blood issue is becoming unavoidable for me since she wants another child

by Check_Your_Premises in

does anybody have info, or know where to find the following info.

1. what % childbirths require blood transfusions for mother?

2. what % childbirths require blood for child?

Check_Your_Premises

BTW, it sounds as though your wife was in the midst of grieving over the loss of your son when the JWs glommed on to her and got her studying. I've seen this kind of thing happen far too often, and I can't help but think of them as emotional vultures.
Would your wife understand if you said you just weren't ready to try for another child just yet? A year of grieving may only be scratching the surface for you... it may be too soon just yet, especially considering all the changes that have happened in the last year with her studying and getting baptized. You already know the risks of her having another abruption... and the risk of a transfusion subsequent to that... you can say you just aren't ready to lose her or another child that way...

You pretty much nailed it with the first part Scully. She already had jw-itis (belief that jw are God's organization), but she didn't really commit to it until after our son's death. She was baptized within 5 months of his death. I remember how impressed I was by all of the concerned jw who immediately descended on our hospital once I put the word out. Now I realize they were also there to talk her out of taking any blood.

Well the next pregnancy is something we agreed on almost immediately. For me, it is the need to not back down from life. I also want to have more than one child (my other two are step). For her, I think it is simply the deeply instinctive need to hold her baby. It is like a amputee who feels pain in their lost limb.

Now with all I have learned, and after talking to MJ, this is just one extra concern we have going in. I don't know what the right answer is. I want another child VERY badly. I am very afraid that this irrational ruling from 12-14 addled men could lead to her unecessary death. I don't want to be a party to that. I don't want her death on my conscience.

Also, since this is such a deeply emotional subject for both of us, I thought it might provide a decent avenue of approach for making her aware that the org plays it fast and loose with the lives of it's members. "You will know them by the fruit they bear".

Indeed.

CYP

17

Blood issue is becoming unavoidable for me since she wants another child

by Check_Your_Premises in

does anybody have info, or know where to find the following info.

1. what % childbirths require blood transfusions for mother?

2. what % childbirths require blood for child?

Check_Your_Premises

Does anyone know if the new HIPPA law prevents them from asking you if you received a transfusion?

Let me clarify, does the law prevent the JW from asking if she received a transfusion. Let's say she did. Can they legally ask her? Can I threaten them if they push it?

I understand there was a change which made it a da offense. In that case though, how would they know? You don't investigate to da someone?! What if she got one and just didn't tell them?

17

Blood issue is becoming unavoidable for me since she wants another child

by Check_Your_Premises in

does anybody have info, or know where to find the following info.

1. what % childbirths require blood transfusions for mother?

2. what % childbirths require blood for child?

Check_Your_Premises

Does anyone know if the new HIPPA law prevents them from asking you if you received a transfusion?

CYP

Check_Your_Premises

Posts by Check_Your_Premises