Just to enhance the experience of my infidel threats, in my head I am using the voice of the Soup Nazi.
"I fuel my jet plane for you!!!"
Check_Your_Premises
JoinedPosts by Check_Your_Premises
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163
The Bible...trust in Faith or trust in Fact?
by jgnat ini read the most extraordinary claim the other day.
"the bible is factual.
" i wondered, how could the speaker possibly back up such a claim?
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163
The Bible...trust in Faith or trust in Fact?
by jgnat ini read the most extraordinary claim the other day.
"the bible is factual.
" i wondered, how could the speaker possibly back up such a claim?
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Check_Your_Premises
Btw, the exchange between CYP and Kid-A reminded me of something I have often thought: there may be no difference at all between a believer who is really aware of what believing is and an unbeliever who denies an idea of God claiming to be more than belief. Mysticism and atheism meet, inasmuch as the God of the mystic doesn't "exist" in the sense of being "someone" or "something" along with the "rest of reality".
I am to dumb to understand this, so I must fuel my jet for you as well!!
BUt seriously. Let me ask for clarification. My God, for me, exists outside of reality and that is like an atheist who claims that God can't exist without believing in Him/Her/It?
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163
The Bible...trust in Faith or trust in Fact?
by jgnat ini read the most extraordinary claim the other day.
"the bible is factual.
" i wondered, how could the speaker possibly back up such a claim?
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Check_Your_Premises
So much for experiental faith!!!
(CYP fuels his jet, rather then face the possiblity that his entire worldview is based on the misfiring of a THC addled synapsis)
The streets will flow with the blood of the unbelievers!!!
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163
The Bible...trust in Faith or trust in Fact?
by jgnat ini read the most extraordinary claim the other day.
"the bible is factual.
" i wondered, how could the speaker possibly back up such a claim?
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Check_Your_Premises
Great post JGnat!
I think I may confuse some athiest/agnostics here having gone the opposite direction they have.
I also am annoyed as they are by some fundamentalist antics, particularly those that make mention of fact or fiction that could only be at best described as likely or unlikely.
Such reluctance to name as "truth" in absence of evidence can come across to the fundamentalist as lack of faith. For instance I have always thought the story of the garden of eden to be allegory rather than actual events. And for me it is difficult to respect a fundamentalist who maintains that such events took place exactly as described without any supporting evidence (or in the presence of evidence to the contrary). It disturbs me!
I do however think the key teachings of the Bible is intact, and far simpler then many would have it. I also think whatever "facts" you require, will be given to if you do exercise the due diligence to seek out a Creator who manifests himself in a subtle but barely perceptible ways that are only found by repeatedly asking "why".
For myself my breakthrough in faith came when I decided to imagine that His existence could be a possibility. It was a painful detachment of my rational mind as Terry would put it. I realized that in many ways we can be better off believing in God, that such a decision has practical benefits. I decided, for the sake of argument, to believe that God existed.
The grass became greener. The sky became bluer. My life became infused with meaning that always eluded my proudly rational mind. I immediately began to have experiences stemming from my new perspective. I kind of liked it. But in particular I began to have very vivid dreams that indirectly fortold a future life shattering event. One in particular had details that simply could never have been anticipated by my subconsious. I guess it would just be to damn relevant and coincidental for me to think it was just chance. I can say that I never felt so prepared for something in my life. I felt the hand of God. What started as a little project on the meaning of existence became a life altering event.
I don't expect anyone to take my experience as proof of God or the Bible. I am just saying that whatever proof you require, will likely be given to you if you ask for it. I am not saying that every word of the Bible is fact as written, for I could never prove such a thing. I will say that I percieve facts and realities about the universe and the Bible provides for me a likely and believable explanation. I hope everyone can find those benefits and avoid the many, many, many, many pitfalls such as door knocking, kool-aid drinking, or beheading of non-believers.
Of course, anyone reading this does not agree, I will crash a plane into your house! Die infidel die!
Great post JGnat!!!
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11
Teaching Prior to 1935 about heaven
by golden age init is all over the net that in 1935 rutherford got a flash of light stating that his followers would start to have an earthly hope.
the great multitude that is.
and that prior to that there were some classes of earthly salvation but it did not appear to be his followers that would be involved in that.
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Check_Your_Premises
So with the stroke of a pen, Judge Rutherford sentenced ALL MANKIND OUTSIDE OF THE ORGANIZATION a death sentence at Armageddon. "Try and get out of the organization NOW, smarty!"
DO they actually teach that still?
I have asked dubs recently, "I beleive in Christ, why do I have to be in the right group to have salvation? Christ's sacrifice wasn't enough?"
THey just mumble something about "well only God can say who is saved"
So they are talking about the post millenial judgement? They are avoiding armageddon altogether?
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39
I have alot of questions
by MrsBee inmy husband is a d'fed jw and i think he is gonna try and make his way back there .
they dont believe in fate?
(long story short, we were high school sweethearts, didnt see each other since xmas 1993 even though we lived in the same city then he ran into my mother xmas 2003, while i lived in charlotte and he was here in maryland, i moved back to maryland 3 weeks later and we were married 7 months after that- i believe in fate, i dont think its far fetched to believe that god has a plan for everyone).
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Check_Your_Premises
I thought about this some more. Your husband left because of jwbb (jw behaving badly). This is probably the most common reason other than moral failings.
One of the things that makes leaving so hard though is the PHOBIAS. This is a huge aspect of mind control. I think having a child has made his jw implanted phobias seem more relevant than before. I would add one more question for you to ask him.
"If you never went back to the jw, what do you think would happen?"
He will likely say, "I won't survive armageddon or live forever in paradise"
"I thought we were saved by believing in Christs sacrifice, so that wasn't enough? I have to join the right group?"
I hope I am not being to pushy with you. I know I probably sound that way, or like a know it all or even a bitter over the top lunatic? I am just so heartbroken every time a new ubm shows up. Especially women ubms. I am just so desperate for you to avoid this fate. It really is a pathetic existence. I wouldn't wish it on anybody. Ask kls. Ask Will Power. I just see you as having a small window of opportunity that will make the difference between a few months of needless grief versus years or even decades.
I am so sorry about all of this. I am so sorry you are going through it during a pregnancy. I know you have enough emotional and physical stress as it is. But you need to get some mamma grizzly bear in you right now and fight this thing hard, yet at the same time have the strength to come off as a sweety your husband would never want to let down.
Prayers.
CYP
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39
I have alot of questions
by MrsBee inmy husband is a d'fed jw and i think he is gonna try and make his way back there .
they dont believe in fate?
(long story short, we were high school sweethearts, didnt see each other since xmas 1993 even though we lived in the same city then he ran into my mother xmas 2003, while i lived in charlotte and he was here in maryland, i moved back to maryland 3 weeks later and we were married 7 months after that- i believe in fate, i dont think its far fetched to believe that god has a plan for everyone).
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Check_Your_Premises
Regarding those questions I gave you to ask, the beauty of them is you don't need to research anything. Just fire them off. See what he says. Come tell us what he says, and we will give you some new ones. The only research you are doing is on him.
He didn't join because of some jw fact that you are going to research and present to him. He joined because of some fact about him. It is not likely that you will be able to show him some fact that refutes a jw claim and have him accept it. It is likely he WANTS to believe in the jw. The facts don't matter. The facts only matter if he DOES NOT WANT to believe in the jw. (If you noticed, one of those questions I gave you paves the way for you to bring up facts.)
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39
I have alot of questions
by MrsBee inmy husband is a d'fed jw and i think he is gonna try and make his way back there .
they dont believe in fate?
(long story short, we were high school sweethearts, didnt see each other since xmas 1993 even though we lived in the same city then he ran into my mother xmas 2003, while i lived in charlotte and he was here in maryland, i moved back to maryland 3 weeks later and we were married 7 months after that- i believe in fate, i dont think its far fetched to believe that god has a plan for everyone).
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Check_Your_Premises
Im still researching alot of stuff, plus I mean he hasnt even gone to ONE meeting since we have been married, Im just loading my guns because he will go back eventually and before he starts gettting all Zombie and everything I want to just be prepared so I can TRY and nip it in the BUD, beause honestly if I knew he would go back to be a witness, I wouldnt have married him, even as much as I love him..
I know you are overwhelmed with info right now, that is why I gave you a small area to focus on. I don't think you want to load your guns now. I think you want to do everything in your power to keep him from going back to the KH. I fear the second he sets foot in that place you will lose all of the reasonableness and closeness you have. Don't underestimate the power of mind control. That was my mistake.
I figured I would look for some stuff, and if my wife decided to get baptized I would be able to REASON with her to talk her out of it. I figured she trusted me, and would respect my concern. The hair on the back of my neck stood up when I asked her "if the jw told you to do something that was against God's will would you do it?" and I saw her reaction. Now that question is simple enough to understand. My wife looked at me like I said "2+2=jello". That was when I realized I was in way over my head.
Do whatever you can to keep him out of the KH and away from other JWs (without criticizing the JW of course). I can't stress that enough. 90% of their mind control takes place inside. The second he goes back he will change almost instantly before your eyes. If you can keep him out your job will be so much easier. Once he goes back it will become SOOOOO much harder. Keep him very busy. Use every tool and excuse at your disposal. Don't give him the chance.
Have you ordered Hassan's books yet?
CYP
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39
I have alot of questions
by MrsBee inmy husband is a d'fed jw and i think he is gonna try and make his way back there .
they dont believe in fate?
(long story short, we were high school sweethearts, didnt see each other since xmas 1993 even though we lived in the same city then he ran into my mother xmas 2003, while i lived in charlotte and he was here in maryland, i moved back to maryland 3 weeks later and we were married 7 months after that- i believe in fate, i dont think its far fetched to believe that god has a plan for everyone).
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Check_Your_Premises
MrsBee,
I had a few more thoughts on the ubm checklist. We get one of you every few weeks. Often I leave the intros and to do lists to my able colleagues. As I learn more, my own new ubm checklist changes.
Something I learned or came upon recently is from a former dub; "you leave the watchtower through the same door you entered."
That means you aren't going to be able to show him something that didn't have any bearing on his decision to be a dub, and expect it to have any effect. Or to put it simply, don't try to force him out another door.
Secondly, many of the vast facts and reasoning that can be brought to bear will have no real significance to you. So that means you are not going to be able to present it or argue it effectively. If you wouldn't buy it, you are going to have a hard time selling it!
So what I am trying to get at, is you have been given a huge amount of info in a short amount of time. It can be very overwhelming. I am not saying that you shouldn't try to get a handle on it all. You may have to! What I am saying is you need to go for the things that will get you the most bang for your buck.
Especially in your case, because I fear you don't have alot of time. He will make all sorts of promises to you right now of tolerance, and even openmindeness on blood transfusions for example. The second they get their hooks back in him, expect all of that to disappear in an instant! Ask MJ.
So your research should focus on:
1. What door did he come through
2. What issues do you care about regarding the dubs
3. What combinations can you find between 1 and 2. THIS IS YOUR AREA OF NECESSARY EXPERTISE. Put all other research at a lower priority. Know what subjects are out there, so when targets of opportunity arise you can capitlize on them. But be an expert in the areas where 1 and 2 combine.
I noticed you didn't comment on the questions I recommended. Do you think they won't work in your case? Don't worry, you won't hurt my feelings. The difficult part for a ubm critiquer is that there is just so darn much we don't know about your relationship or where things are from a perspective of timing.
Take a look at those questions again, let us know what you think about them. Maybe those exact questions won't work right now, but there are ideas behind them. What questions might be more effective, yet convey the same ideas?
I am very fascinated and hopeful of the idea that we might be able to talk you through this. You are at a point that many of us were at. In hindsight, I think most of us ubm's are sure we could have avoided all of this if we "only knew then what we know now". If we only could have asked the right questions when our spouses were still in control of important portions of their mind. I think this is a universal ubm lament.
I can't stress enough that I think you are in a critical time. Let's make the most of it!!!
CYP
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39
I have alot of questions
by MrsBee inmy husband is a d'fed jw and i think he is gonna try and make his way back there .
they dont believe in fate?
(long story short, we were high school sweethearts, didnt see each other since xmas 1993 even though we lived in the same city then he ran into my mother xmas 2003, while i lived in charlotte and he was here in maryland, i moved back to maryland 3 weeks later and we were married 7 months after that- i believe in fate, i dont think its far fetched to believe that god has a plan for everyone).
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Check_Your_Premises
Here is a letter I wrote to my wife. It is a pretty good way for a male ubm to get a female jw to count the costs it will have on your marriage. Some folks used some of it. It didn't seem to work so good on male jw's.
I wouldn't try saying any of this directly on him right now. The point that you should take away is that there are some very destructive/toxic attitudes that will develop in him that stem from his idea that he has all the truth. You are going to have to confront those ideas. Also it might help you to understand and articulate some things you will be feeling if he goes back.