Check_Your_Premises

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Posts by Check_Your_Premises

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  14

  FINDING THE CORRECT TRANSLATION of Holy writings

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  this is an important topic.

  which means, of course, it will be largely ignored!

  mostly it will be ingored because it is deep.

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  Check_Your_Premises

  Thanks for the clarification Steve. That is pretty funny. Not a very good model of Christian behavior.
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  63

  SECRECY, Pros and Cons...UBM's, I'm asking you

  by jgnat in

  1. social
  2. relationships

  "unbelieving mates" (ubm's), this is for you.

  i'm compiling a tips sheet for brand-new ubm's to help them deal with the stresses and strains of being in a religiously mixed marriage.

  help me out by giving me your experience, both good and bad, about secrecy.

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  Check_Your_Premises

  I ask a stupid question, but how can this get between a marriage, new or old.

  Let me take a crack at this one.

  What I said recently was

  "I just wish it was back to just you and me. But it isn't. It is me, you , and them! It used to be that if we had to figure something out, you and I would figure something out ourselves. Compromise. Now there is this other member who absolutely will never compromise no matter what you and I think."
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  14

  FINDING THE CORRECT TRANSLATION of Holy writings

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  this is an important topic.

  which means, of course, it will be largely ignored!

  mostly it will be ingored because it is deep.

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  Check_Your_Premises

  "PRICK". Ahh? "PRICK". Ahh, sorry? "You're a Prick!". I don't undsta.."Hey everyone, we've got a PRICK at the bar".

  You kind of lost me here. Are you saying this guy flew off the handle and started calling you a prick? This is a paraphrase or quote of his reaction to what you said?

  CYP
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  14

  FINDING THE CORRECT TRANSLATION of Holy writings

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  this is an important topic.

  which means, of course, it will be largely ignored!

  mostly it will be ingored because it is deep.

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  Check_Your_Premises

  Great post. I would love to hear more about the subjects you encountered in your search to validate the Bible and canon. These are haunting questions for me as well.

  We have had a few exchanes in the past (pleasant I hope?) about the issues involved for the individual deciding what they believe and why.

  But what about mankind as a group, since no man is an island. "How then shall we live?" What I mean is that Dostovyesky concluded, as I understand, that if there is no God we would probably need to invent him. How does mankind define morality without an external referee. We can appeal to practicality, but that always leads you to questions about who benefits, who bears costs, and who gets to decide. And ultimately the decision is always backed by force. Without force to back it up, there is no civilization.

  So do you think we are better off as a species without the idea of an external referee? Without the idea of such a ref, isn't our best hope then to try to define a moral structure that benefits the greatest number in terms of the amount of control they have over their existence? But there will always be those who would rather forgo all the difficulty of allocating resources in an objective way, and resort to thuggery and looting. Are we only to hope that we can keep the thugs and looters at bay indefinitely. Or do we hope to survive as a species each successively worse spasm of violence, repression, resistance, liberation, and ultimately violence again?

  I can think of two examples of godless societies today. One is Europe, which from the historical vantage point appears to have its best days behind it. It's populace is shrinking, it's economies are bloated and stagnant from failed socialist experiments, and mostly the only things it believes in strongly is how shameful it's history is. The other example I can think of is China. They are clearly a nation on the rise, having shaken off some of the shackles of marxist dogma. It will be interesting to see how they traverse the murky waters of rapid economic advancement, old world tradition versus apparant decadent consumerism, and all without the safety valve of the democratic process. Historically China's internal squabbles have been extremely bloody. I guess when you have over a billion people, losing ten or twenty million here or there isn't that big of a deal. Especially when you don't have the idea of an external referee telling you the death of millions is not a good thing.

  I know these aren't easy questions, I just figure I have to give some balance since your post seems to dwell on the costs of faith while excluding the benefits. I also thought it didn't seem to recognize the cost that can come from man's lack of faith.

  How then shall we live? I guess we could just tell everyone to "be rational", but I don't think that one will work. Thanks in advance for your reply.
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  26

  Christianity, Satan & Halloween

  by Nellie in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  forget about being a witness - i never, ever understood how mainstream christian people could justify participating in a celebration that is so overtly satanic.

  while i recognize the ability to dress up in non-satanic costumes, the participation aspect bothers me.

  of course, now, my kids want to trick or treat, but i just can't bring myself to say "yes.

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  Check_Your_Premises

  Would god condemn you for doing something, such as participating in Halloween, when you have no evil intent in your mind or heart?

  Exactly. Sin is not a fleshly act. It originates from within, in a decision to not love God or to not love your fellow man. If you are doing something that in no way originates with a desire to worship something besides God, then you are not practicing idolatry.

  It is about candy.

  And we are not subject to some list of spiritual regulations. To subject ourselves to such a list, now that would be idolatry!

  CYP
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  63

  SECRECY, Pros and Cons...UBM's, I'm asking you

  by jgnat in

  1. social
  2. relationships

  "unbelieving mates" (ubm's), this is for you.

  i'm compiling a tips sheet for brand-new ubm's to help them deal with the stresses and strains of being in a religiously mixed marriage.

  help me out by giving me your experience, both good and bad, about secrecy.

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  Check_Your_Premises

  I know what you mean Carla.

  It is such a painful thing. In a way, you almost have to experience it to understand. I remember way back in the days when they first showed up. I saw red flags, but when I sniffed around I saw all this stuff that just seemed over the top. They described these awful people and how they ruined families. It just didn't square with what I saw in these nice folks.

  I think one of the things folks like us really need to perfect is the way we warn people about the org. It is really important to let them tell you what bothers them, and then bring up possible related issues they might not have considered. When we come at them screaming bloody murder (oops we are supposed to abstain from blood) about how awful they are, it makes us seem unhinged.

  I just didn't see it coming though. And my wife just thinks it is me. I think most ubm's consider joining another cult, just to spite their jw spouse and put them through the same experiences. I think I would make an awesome branch davidian. I have excellent marksmanship. If it wasn't for the kids, and the additional damage it would do seeing both their folks go off the deep end, I would do it in a second.

  The kids. The weak spot for the ubm. I for one did not work my whole life to build the means to provide all I never had for my children, only to have them filled with mind control garbage and be enslaved by a publishing company. It is hard for me not to get downright murderous when my kids are threatened.

  CYP
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  63

  SECRECY, Pros and Cons...UBM's, I'm asking you

  by jgnat in

  1. social
  2. relationships

  "unbelieving mates" (ubm's), this is for you.

  i'm compiling a tips sheet for brand-new ubm's to help them deal with the stresses and strains of being in a religiously mixed marriage.

  help me out by giving me your experience, both good and bad, about secrecy.

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  2. 
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  Check_Your_Premises

  Great questions JGNAT!

  1. Are you open with your partner about your participation on this board? No Way! To do so in my opinion would violate trust. Furthermore, it would allow my jw to gain insights into my connivings.
  2. Do you hide your reference materials from your partner? Absolutely. Trust again.
  3. Have you had any close calls, and if so, describe them? I cleaned up an old account that she knew I usedem with ubm emails. One day I was opening it up and she walked up. It should have been ok, but I took a deep breath before the inbox opened. Luckily there were no ubm emails!
  4. If you are secretive about your anti-JW activities, do you plan on coming clean with your partner at some time? I doubt I ever will completely. I could see doing this only after she were out... way out.
  5. If you do plan on coming clean, when do you anticipate doing so? When she is out.
  6. If your partner is aware of your anti-JW activity, how do they react? When I read apostate books openly in the past, it became a big scandal in the hall, and made everyone uncomfortable.
  7. Any stories to share?

  I guess my summary of advice on this would contain two basic premises. First of all, to assist your loved one in gaining a new perspective you have to have their trust. THis is step one. Without this, there is no step 2, 3, 4, 5...9487373. Now you can say you are only trying to get a second opinoin, but then anything you mention will automatically be suspect. Apostate books are written by Satan in their eyes. This all then speaks to the need for some level of secrecy. You can't overtly say that you are trying to help steer them out of the org and expect them to trust you in any way.

  On the other hand I am a firm beleiver in honesty. We have to be honest with ourselves, and anytime we engage in deciet even by omission, we take up a burden that has to be maintained at all times! I would recommend therefore, to make the level of secrecy to a minimum. I therefore have cultivated a personality that is acceptable to the witness, but completely truthful and accurate. This is an absoute necessity because you have to have a legitmate reason for NOT being a jw. To the jw, their paradigm is God's paradigm. To not believe it out of ignorance is acceptable because ignorance can be changed. To reject it is to reject God. To reject God is to embrace Satan. To embrace Satan is to become the enemy. Make your life easier. Embrace ignorance.

  My persona is this: I am only interested in truth. Whatever the truth is, I will accept it. If the jw are right, their teachings will withstand any scrutiny, and I will be forced to accept it. I am a Christian because I have faith in my salvation through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. I don't see any scriptural account of salvation, or a specific statement that stipulates that joining a certain group of imperfect people is a requirement of salvation. I therefore simply see no reason why I need to be a witness. I never criticize the witnesses or even say they are wrong. I only say I don't agree with this or that. I am completely open and interested in anything they have to say. I go to their meetings. I study with them. I befriend them. But I doggedly insist that I only will follow my own conscience.

  This is completely honest, it is a completely fair and scripturally irrefuteable position. Furthermore it puts the witness in the uncomfortable position of trying to show you that despite the fact there is no requirement to be a jw, it is nevertheless something you "just have to do". They will attempt to show it is required, but it is pure sophistry, and so far easily refuted.

  The most honest thing though, is to be honest about your emotions. You are likely going to be hurt or angry by your experiences with a jw loved one. You do need to make those feelings known or they will fester into resentment and rage. If you develop these sorts of feelings, any efforts to help the jw will be hamstrung. So by all means, discuss your feelings. Just be very careful to focus your discussions on the individual jw, do not let the org become the focus.

  Caveat: If children are involved the matter is much more complicated!
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  11

  duality: there are two people in there!

  by telltruth in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  good day everyone.

  have any of you, and i'm sure you have, noticed two distinct personalities to the jw.

  one that tows the company line so to speak and the other, the real person asserting their true self?

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  Check_Your_Premises

  This is an interesting subject, and I think one of the shortcomings of Hassan's book, RTB, is that it gives a very basic explanation of this phenomenon.

  First of all, I think it is something we can all relate to. As a previous poster mentioned, we all have different personas. We have our "work persona", our "out with the guys" persona, our "religious persona". We probably all can relate to the uncomfortable feeling we get when these worlds collide. For instance I can recall drinking and having a good time at my brother's wedding. I was in my "out with the guys" persona. Then my grandmother tapped me on the shoulder. She didn't say anything, or act in any way dissaprovingly. Nevetheless, I was suddenly ashamed.

  I think many of our personalites are exclusive and even contradictory.

  The reason it is important to understand the phenomenon if you are wanting to help someone be open to the flaws in the jw paradigm, is that they are most open when they are not in their jw persona. THink of it as a sheild. When they are in jw-mode, their sheild is up. When they are not, it is down.

  I think Jgnat brought up an excellent point, that anyone hoping to open a jw's eyes, will need to become accomplished and aware of how to manipulate a jw in and out of this mode.

  Another thought I had about this is that there is some inertia involved. I think the longer a person spends in one persona, the more difficult it is to switch back to the other. Furthermore, when a person spends more time in a persona that is in conflict with another, the difficulty in switching is more profound.

  The trick I think with a jw is to get them out of jw mode, but do it in a way that when the subject comes back around to something that contradicts the jw paradigm, it doesn't trigger their jw personality. This is a highly skilled bit of jiu-jitsu or maybe ballet, that I am not sure I have a good idea how to employ. Furthermore, it requires a level of sophistication that is difficult to realistically inject into a spontaneous conversation. To attempt to force it into a conversation is to risk coming off like a salesman. This subject is definitely an area where I lack a solid understanding.

  CYP
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  51

  tions about hello everyone, i'm new here,,,

  by telltruth in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hello everyone.

  have recently met someone, amazing person!

  however have many questions about jw's and wt.

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  Check_Your_Premises

  Hey telltruth.

  I hope you are being careful about not having children, if that is a matter of concern. Children bring a weak or ex-jw's phobias roaring back with a vengence. Be very careful in that regard.

  A minor protocol note; it is best I have found to start a new thread when the subject changes. Eventually a thread gets so long that nobody wants to wade through it. There are exceptions. Those who are following your story will recognize your name. And try to make the new thread as specific as possible. There are a million, "im new here" titles. It will help us all track your progress.

  I will say that you probably have a good opportunity to help this person, since she doesn't mind breaking the taboo of being with a worldy guy. That likely means she is open to breaking other taboos. The key goal is getting her to realize that this is not the right religion. That is her center of gravity. If that is not removed, all the other jw behavior is just waiting for a moment of uncertainty to come rushing back.

  Make her feel safe, loved, and trusting of you. As long as she feels that way with you, she won't feel the need to rush back into the arms of her abusive ex.

  CYP
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  51

  Why DOESN'T Ray Franz post here?

  by AlmostAtheist in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  silly question.

  he wrote the best known ex-jw book.

  the title is even known among faithful dubs.. it's hard to imagine that he's not interested in the topic.

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  Check_Your_Premises

  I sent him an email once thanking him for his book and how much it helps so many of us who get bulldozed by the runaway train that is the delusional world of the jw.

  I got the sense that he really didn't want to be associated with any anti-jw type thing. He called a spade a spade. He doesn't feel the need to pile on. He is also aware that there are a lot of misplaced and unecessary negativity directed at the jw and it's members. It is hard not to be negative when you are on the receiving end of their toxic delusions, but ultimately they are just what he called them, "victims of victims" and "captives of a concept". He probably just doesn't want to be apart of anything like that.

  Plus he is not in the best of health. The last email he responded with gave me a detailed description of his health problems.

  I love Ray but he isn't the worlds greatest summarizer.