Posts by Check_Your

45

UBM strategies: Befriend the KH outcasts

by Check_Your_Premises in

jw
friends

in the spirit of jgnat's strategies, and her "making friends" post:.

i have noticed that the kh has a heirarchy.

there are the elders families, and young couples that everyone wants to do things with because they have all these things in common.

Check_Your_Premises

JGnat,

There is one other point I would add to this discussion, since it bears directly to it.

IN GENERAL, negative emotions are only useful in the short term. Jealousy, anger, fear... these are usually shocking and powerful. They focus our mind to the danger that we didn't see before.

After that, they don't have much use. They cause us to be unbalanced and unhinged and desperate and out of control.

I have found it is best to use the focus given by these negative emotions to figure out what my situation is, how I got into it, determine the nature of the threat, the nature of the consequences, and then come up with a plan to deal with it. Once I do those things, the raw negative emotions usually give way to a cool, yet resolved, determination.

CYP

45

UBM strategies: Befriend the KH outcasts

by Check_Your_Premises in

jw
friends

in the spirit of jgnat's strategies, and her "making friends" post:.

i have noticed that the kh has a heirarchy.

there are the elders families, and young couples that everyone wants to do things with because they have all these things in common.

Check_Your_Premises

I don't think anyone here does that CYP. Just because we say things here doesn't mean we say them to our spouse. This was supposed to be place to vent as well as exchange ideas.

Well I wasn't saying anybody here necessarily did that. IT was the most extreme example of what won't work. I think it is equally pointless to bring before your spouse any cost you have had to bear as a result of their choice, with the conclusion of your argument being, "the WT is bad!!".

Rule #1 never insult the org.

Rather I try to focus ONLY on my spouse's behaviour, or the consequences I have had to deal with. I then don't expect her to conclude that the WT is bad. I am not trying to win an argument. I just let her know that she has a responsiblity to try to lessen those costs. If that isn't possible, she has a responsibility to try to offset them. It is not done in an angry way. It is not done in anyway that is spiteful. IT is done only as an appeal to fairness. I always show her religion and her faith respect. I MUST do this if I expect her to respect me.

I am not telling you that you or anybody else are doing anything wrong. I know that you don't say the things to your husband that you say here. BUt even if you don't say those things here, your attitude is clear. Whatever you say to your husband, don't kid yourself that your attitude doesn't come through loud and clear. I know it isn't fair. I know they act like jackasses. If you ever think you are going to get them to be fair, you are kidding yourself.

I am just pointing out some problems I have encountered and how I have dealt with them. I have pointed out some things that have worked very well for me. I understand that if some folks are to disgusted to be in the same room with a JW. Beleive me. I guess it is a matter of what you are willing to do to win. I have children at stake here. There is nothing I wont' do.

CYP

45

UBM strategies: Befriend the KH outcasts

by Check_Your_Premises in

jw
friends

in the spirit of jgnat's strategies, and her "making friends" post:.

i have noticed that the kh has a heirarchy.

there are the elders families, and young couples that everyone wants to do things with because they have all these things in common.

Check_Your_Premises

I also never said, and I certainly never implied that anybody should "kiss ass" or "bend over backward".

I think it is very important for the sanity of the ubm to speak about the things that trouble them. If you do it in a way that focus' ONLY on the person (not on the org), and are VERY humble about it, they respond and take the costs you have had to bear to heart. In fact it is quite troubling for them to see their honest, humble spouse being forced to bear the costs of their decision.

If you scream, "I hate the WT cuz you are never around!!!" don't expect alot of sympathy. They will chalk it up to you "just looking for things to complain about".

CYP

45

UBM strategies: Befriend the KH outcasts

by Check_Your_Premises in

jw
friends

in the spirit of jgnat's strategies, and her "making friends" post:.

i have noticed that the kh has a heirarchy.

there are the elders families, and young couples that everyone wants to do things with because they have all these things in common.

Check_Your_Premises

If other ways have been successful, please share! I am collecting all successful strategies. So far as I can see, open war doesn't work.

Actually Gary Buss was an example. Their marriage was destroyed. They went to a counselor and slowly negotiated less meeting time for his wife.

Eventually, she was more open minded and left. I guess it wasn't a case of open war throughout, but open war precipitiated the situation to a point of crisis. She was forced to choose whether or not she really believed all this stuff. She was forced to decide if she was really willing to give up her "meal ticket" as Gary put it.

CYP

45

UBM strategies: Befriend the KH outcasts

by Check_Your_Premises in

jw
friends

in the spirit of jgnat's strategies, and her "making friends" post:.

i have noticed that the kh has a heirarchy.

there are the elders families, and young couples that everyone wants to do things with because they have all these things in common.

Check_Your_Premises

Jgnat,

I may not have hit it in any comprehensive way, but the issues of demonizing and scapegoating are SUCH common pitfalls, I really think they need to be included in any kind of discussion of how ubm's should handle things...

CYP

45

UBM strategies: Befriend the KH outcasts

by Check_Your_Premises in

jw
friends

in the spirit of jgnat's strategies, and her "making friends" post:.

i have noticed that the kh has a heirarchy.

there are the elders families, and young couples that everyone wants to do things with because they have all these things in common.

Check_Your_Premises

There is one other aspect of demonizing the JW that I wanted to address as well; scapegoating.

It is very easy to make the JW, in our mind, the cause of every problem. They are very problematic. The JW religion influences every aspect of our lives. The problem is though, by making the the demonic cause of every problem it can keep us from honestly looking at how we contribute to problems, or even other causes that are outside our influence.

Example: "We have a horrible relationship because we never see you at the holidays because your spouse is a JW"

Ok, there is truth to that statement. The time when everyone makes time to get together is on the holidays. But that doesn't mean the person making this statement couldn't do more THEMSELVES to make the relationship better. By scapegoating, and making the JW the only cause of the problem, it keeps them from taking responsibility for themselves. That is significant, because we are the only people we have any control over... if we are lucky!

CYP

45

UBM strategies: Befriend the KH outcasts

by Check_Your_Premises in

jw
friends

in the spirit of jgnat's strategies, and her "making friends" post:.

i have noticed that the kh has a heirarchy.

there are the elders families, and young couples that everyone wants to do things with because they have all these things in common.

Check_Your_Premises

Jgnat, you nerd.

Of course that means I like it because I am a dork.

CYP

45

UBM strategies: Befriend the KH outcasts

by Check_Your_Premises in

jw
friends

in the spirit of jgnat's strategies, and her "making friends" post:.

i have noticed that the kh has a heirarchy.

there are the elders families, and young couples that everyone wants to do things with because they have all these things in common.

Check_Your_Premises

This actually isn't a hypothetical discussion. I am not that creative.

I got this idea because my JW wife went to lunch with a depressed, older sister. She is an outcast. She told my wife, "the friends forget about some of us older ones"

I told her, "well we won't forget about them"

That came from a ubm. It came from a worldly. It came from someone who Jehovah will slaughter any day now.

Don't think those expressions of love don't cause difficult conflicts to rationalize.

CYP

45

UBM strategies: Befriend the KH outcasts

by Check_Your_Premises in

jw
friends

in the spirit of jgnat's strategies, and her "making friends" post:.

i have noticed that the kh has a heirarchy.

there are the elders families, and young couples that everyone wants to do things with because they have all these things in common.

Check_Your_Premises

and that limits his exposure to jw's a little. At least on a social level.

THis is a good point Carla!

Yes, everything is a trade off. I never meant to imply that doing such things didn't have costs. You always have to ask if the costs outweigh the benefits.

I think he gets plenty of social interaction. Because I do go to the hall and to some of the meetings, I realize the extent to which she is influenced at the meetings and book study. I see how the social interaction appeals to her need for a sense of extended family. Now I see that as something I can address.

You can't influence the situation if you don't understand it.

CYP

45

UBM strategies: Befriend the KH outcasts

by Check_Your_Premises in

jw
friends

in the spirit of jgnat's strategies, and her "making friends" post:.

i have noticed that the kh has a heirarchy.

there are the elders families, and young couples that everyone wants to do things with because they have all these things in common.

Check_Your_Premises

Terry made some great points about dillusions on another post. The problem with dillusions is they cause us to act in ways that aren't consistent with reality. When we act outside of what is reality, we can usually expect to get the well known "reality check". His analogy is that if you pretend a wall doesn't exist, eventually you are going to bloody your nose, bumping into that wall.

I think a wall that is easy to bump into is to demonize the JW. Believe me, I understand those who have become enraged by the mindless, runaway train that is the WT. The costs to me have been more than I ever thought I could bear, and they have literally taken from me the only thing that I ever hoped for.

But I think it is another thing altogether to take that anger, and what the WT is to me which is the greatest enemy I have ever faced, and apply that anger to each individual JW. They are not the WT. They are not even the JW. They are people who are "captives of a concept". They are dangerous. They are misguided. They are your enemy. But they are people. Just like us they have hopes and dreams. And when you reduce them to a one dimensional representation of all that is evil you are seperating yourself, to an extent, from reality. Additionally, when you have hatred as a motivation you actually end up becoming like what you despise. Eric Hoffer went into detail about how this phenomenon comes about in True Believer.

I guess it matters what your goals are. If your goals are to help your loved one to have the ability to have a different perspective, you are not served by giving in to hatred. It keeps you from behaving in a way that does not feed the persecution mentality your JW loved one. Additionally, validates their concept that people who aren't JW are so unbalanced.

In context of how you view other JW's, your hatred keeps you from reaping the benefits of the Godfather, "keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer". As an openly raving aggressor you are easily recognized and thwarted. As a cunning, hidden foe you are able to draw close to your enemy and "slit the throat" of his cult mind. You are able to observe and manipulate how your loved views those who influence him the most.

I guess it is a matter of whose needs you wish to serve. Your need for justice or your loved ones need for compassion and understanding. Just remember, nothing sticks it to the WT like a freed mind. Nothing supports their goals more then the hateful opposer who validates all the bonds of the JW mind.

CYP

Check_Your_Premises

Posts by Check_Your_Premises