a dialogue has opened up between me and a jw friend about their stance on blood.
just wondered if any of you were ever asked a question that made you think twice, or if you have any questions that you think would be good to ask?
(i don't want to offend this person.
has a link to Chapter 9 of In Search of Christian Freedom which is about the best debunking of the blood doctrine out there.
is a web site that stands for associated jw for reform on blood. They have all sorts of info their as well.
Happy hunting.
CYP
a dialogue has opened up between me and a jw friend about their stance on blood.
just wondered if any of you were ever asked a question that made you think twice, or if you have any questions that you think would be good to ask?
(i don't want to offend this person.
This is not a comprehensive list. These questions are only from scriptures and wt. You could also bring up medical facts and the risks of transfusions.
WT summary:
1. The whole blood doctrine is based first on the use of Genesis 9:5 where God told Noah to poor out blood and give it back to Him. It can't be eaten! This means that blood is sacred.
2. Next there is in Leviticus I think, a section about pouring blood on the altar. It can't be eaten! This means blood is only to be used for sacrifice.
3. Finally in Acts there is a couple of verses that say "abstain from blood". This means abstain completely, totally, and entirely!!!
Some good setup questions:
If you are reading a verse, you are often able to come up with several different meanings right? I mean abstain from blood wasn't likely referring to blood transfusions because they weren't taking place at that time. So that means we have to take that verse and apply it to mean it includes blood transfusions, right?
So when we take a verse and try to find it's meaning in our lives, should we pick the most likely, or the one that is most difficult for us?
For 1 and 2 you could simply say:
"BUt in those verses, isn't it talking about something that died. I mean isn't that why blood is sacred because it represents the life lost? Isn't that the same reason blood is used for sacrifice? I mean there is nothing magical about blood, it is a symbol of the life lost right?"
"Isn't saying you should be willing to die rather than be disrespectful to the symbol of life (blood), kind of like saying I will sacrifice my marriage to save my wedding ring?"
"As a rule, isn't it a good thing to be REALLY difficult to convince that God wants you to let your kids die?"
For 3 you could say:
"How do you abstain from an object? I mean don't you abstain in the form of an action? I mean if I say I abstain from junkfood, you know that I mean I abstain from EATING junkfood. It is obviously implied. So if that verse says abstain from blood, doesn't that mean the writer didn't put the specific action in their, because it is so obviously implied? So the question is what action in regards to blood was so obviously taking place that the writer didn't see the need to say it explicitly? Was it blood tranfusions?"
THey will probably say:
If a doctor told you to abstain from alcohol, would you think it was ok to inject it into your viens?
Respond:
Well if it was my family practioner I would say yes, but then if it was my dermatologist I would figure he was telling me not to use products with alcohol on my skin. See context matters here.
Eventually he will get flustered and rely on the credibility of the org and God's arrangement:
At this point you have them. First ask:
"So the WT says that is what those verses mean? But didn't they used to say it was wrong to have an organ transplant or vaccinations? So did God tell them to make those mistakes? Or did they make a mistake, in which case doesn't that mean they can't be trusted to interpret the blood verses correclty? " (point them to reexamine.org)
"Does God expect you to obey the org, at the risk of your own life, when they are wrong?"
Then they will say they have to obey Jehovah's organization:
Now you really got 'em
"Well when Jesus showed up, God's organization wanted to kill him. Judas obeyed God's organization and betrayed Jesus, instead of following his conscience. Judas wasn't rewarded. He was reviled and judged!"
CYP
like the subject title says, i'm hurt, desperate and confused and don't know what to do anymore.
i'm so desperate to have something to live for that i'm considering converting to something like the jehovah's witnesses.
i know this might seem a bit extreme but please hear me out.
Hey very confused. Glad to have you here. Sorry to hear about your troubles and, well, confusion.
I hope you can find some good friends here. It does take some time. I have always learned to be VERY suspicious of people who all of a sudden are my best friend. It is nice and all, but after awhile it always turns out they were selling something.
Real friendships are built up over time through a slow process of give and take, where trust is slowly given, accepted, and proven. They are also based on similar likes, dislikes, and values.
That is interesting that you are seeking some answers in a RELIGION. Remember, a religion is a group of people who just so happen to have some specific ideas about God and hwo to worship Him. But religion is always a group of people. Maybe what you are seeking is God? If you are seeking God, why not just talk to Him? If you believe the Bible is His word, read it. I just encourage you to not think you have to be with the right group or in the right building to find God.
I also want to caution you. You probably see that since you are kind off balance right now, it would be VERY easy for an abusive group to sell you on an abusive religion. Many people join groups like the moonies or scientology because they are in a hard time in their life, and some group acts like they have all the answers. Steven Hassan is a cult expert. His site is releasingthebonds.org. He was in a real down time and he joined the mooonies.
So be careful PLEASE! I used to think life was fair, and that if something bad happened to me it was ok, because that meant something good had to be around the corner. But then I used to watch the animal shows and see how that when an animal got hurt, it didn't mean he would get a break. It actually meant all the PREDATORS were going to go right after HIM!!! I also tragically learned it in my own life. When my family was at it's weakest, the predators came. But they didn't have fangs. They were the nicest, most decent people. And they had all these pretty pictures and stories about paradise.
Again be careful. Life doesn't suffer fools, and it is awfully tough on those in weak moments. And however bad things are, you are only 20. You got a lot of good years to turn 'em around.
CYP
in the spirit of jgnat's strategies, and her "making friends" post:.
i have noticed that the kh has a heirarchy.
there are the elders families, and young couples that everyone wants to do things with because they have all these things in common.
Hey Serendipity,
You said:
This suggestion seems to making use of the outcasts for a goal of getting a JW mate to leave. As one of those outcasts, I would be really pissed if someone were just "using" me. Especially if the friendship was dropped after the JW left.
Now if you noticed I actually thought of how I was communicating this idea, and I did not want to convey the idea that it would be right to use people in this way. On the contrary, I think that would be kind of, well JW like. I am not going to love bomb someone, and then stop talking to them when I am through with them or find a new prospect.
So to keep from communicating that idea, I put this thought in there.
Besides being a decent human being, and befriending the friendless, the KH outcasts provides two interesting opportunities for the ubm.
Thanks for bringing up this point though. I certainly wouldn't want anyone to misunderstand what I meant CYP
in the spirit of jgnat's strategies, and her "making friends" post:.
i have noticed that the kh has a heirarchy.
there are the elders families, and young couples that everyone wants to do things with because they have all these things in common.
Carla,
I thought about this thread alot over the weekend. This response was the one I was anticipating.
CYP-----------------------------------------Not sure if you are directing that at me CYP, but I am not unbalanced, unhinged or out of control. I am merely trying to figure out how to get on with my life the best as possible having a spouse who is in a destructive cult.
Understand that the attitudes I was describing were actually myself, and the issues I have dealt with in my little dance with the WTBS. I sometimes speak abstractly when others are speaking in a deeply personal way. I wasn't applying any sort of description to anybody in particular, rather I was pointing out the possible dangers of certain types of thinking.
I don't know if that makes sense.
I should have been more sensetive to how my posts would be received. I am sorry if I implied in anyway that you are unhinged. Rather I was trying to point out the dangers of letting yourself get that way.
And remember, I want you to help your husband get control over his life. Whatever will work is the right thing to do!
CYP
in the spirit of jgnat's strategies, and her "making friends" post:.
i have noticed that the kh has a heirarchy.
there are the elders families, and young couples that everyone wants to do things with because they have all these things in common.
JGnat,
There is one other point I would add to this discussion, since it bears directly to it.
IN GENERAL, negative emotions are only useful in the short term. Jealousy, anger, fear... these are usually shocking and powerful. They focus our mind to the danger that we didn't see before.
After that, they don't have much use. They cause us to be unbalanced and unhinged and desperate and out of control.
I have found it is best to use the focus given by these negative emotions to figure out what my situation is, how I got into it, determine the nature of the threat, the nature of the consequences, and then come up with a plan to deal with it. Once I do those things, the raw negative emotions usually give way to a cool, yet resolved, determination.
CYP
in the spirit of jgnat's strategies, and her "making friends" post:.
i have noticed that the kh has a heirarchy.
there are the elders families, and young couples that everyone wants to do things with because they have all these things in common.
I don't think anyone here does that CYP. Just because we say things here doesn't mean we say them to our spouse. This was supposed to be place to vent as well as exchange ideas.
Well I wasn't saying anybody here necessarily did that. IT was the most extreme example of what won't work. I think it is equally pointless to bring before your spouse any cost you have had to bear as a result of their choice, with the conclusion of your argument being, "the WT is bad!!".
Rule #1 never insult the org.
Rather I try to focus ONLY on my spouse's behaviour, or the consequences I have had to deal with. I then don't expect her to conclude that the WT is bad. I am not trying to win an argument. I just let her know that she has a responsiblity to try to lessen those costs. If that isn't possible, she has a responsibility to try to offset them. It is not done in an angry way. It is not done in anyway that is spiteful. IT is done only as an appeal to fairness. I always show her religion and her faith respect. I MUST do this if I expect her to respect me.
I am not telling you that you or anybody else are doing anything wrong. I know that you don't say the things to your husband that you say here. BUt even if you don't say those things here, your attitude is clear. Whatever you say to your husband, don't kid yourself that your attitude doesn't come through loud and clear. I know it isn't fair. I know they act like jackasses. If you ever think you are going to get them to be fair, you are kidding yourself.
I am just pointing out some problems I have encountered and how I have dealt with them. I have pointed out some things that have worked very well for me. I understand that if some folks are to disgusted to be in the same room with a JW. Beleive me. I guess it is a matter of what you are willing to do to win. I have children at stake here. There is nothing I wont' do.
CYP
in the spirit of jgnat's strategies, and her "making friends" post:.
i have noticed that the kh has a heirarchy.
there are the elders families, and young couples that everyone wants to do things with because they have all these things in common.
I also never said, and I certainly never implied that anybody should "kiss ass" or "bend over backward".
I think it is very important for the sanity of the ubm to speak about the things that trouble them. If you do it in a way that focus' ONLY on the person (not on the org), and are VERY humble about it, they respond and take the costs you have had to bear to heart. In fact it is quite troubling for them to see their honest, humble spouse being forced to bear the costs of their decision.
If you scream, "I hate the WT cuz you are never around!!!" don't expect alot of sympathy. They will chalk it up to you "just looking for things to complain about".
CYP
in the spirit of jgnat's strategies, and her "making friends" post:.
i have noticed that the kh has a heirarchy.
there are the elders families, and young couples that everyone wants to do things with because they have all these things in common.
If other ways have been successful, please share! I am collecting all successful strategies. So far as I can see, open war doesn't work.
Actually Gary Buss was an example. Their marriage was destroyed. They went to a counselor and slowly negotiated less meeting time for his wife.
Eventually, she was more open minded and left. I guess it wasn't a case of open war throughout, but open war precipitiated the situation to a point of crisis. She was forced to choose whether or not she really believed all this stuff. She was forced to decide if she was really willing to give up her "meal ticket" as Gary put it.
CYP
in the spirit of jgnat's strategies, and her "making friends" post:.
i have noticed that the kh has a heirarchy.
there are the elders families, and young couples that everyone wants to do things with because they have all these things in common.
Jgnat,
I may not have hit it in any comprehensive way, but the issues of demonizing and scapegoating are SUCH common pitfalls, I really think they need to be included in any kind of discussion of how ubm's should handle things...
CYP
