Posts by bennyk

73

The 70 years of devastation--as revealed by the Bible

by AddaGirl in

watchtower teachings say this period is from 607 bce to 537 bce.

most of the documentation relating to the seventy years indicates that period to be 609 bce to 539 bce, the rule of the babylonian empire.

i wrote to headquarters, because as a bible study student i knew i could ask questions about certain doctrines that those baptized cannot without consequence and some of the information i received from them was very helpful especially when it was used to verify the chronology of the kings of judah and israel through the bible.. the bible says there are actually (2) 70-year periods.. the first being one of servitude to the babylonians of both israel & judah from 609 bce to 539 bce.

bennyk

JCanon quotes "scholar" and comments:

So now you are a linguist in claiming that in Jeremiah 25:11, 12 that the adverbial 'seventy years' modifies only the phrase 'the servitude' and does not modify the phrase' the devastation'. This is simply your opinion and I disagree with this. You cite no scholarly or exegetical support for your opinion so I suggest you demonstrate why your claim is so. I would argue that all of what is said in verse 11 was included in the seventy years which was the land being devastated and servitude to Babylon. That is what the text plainly reads.
This is absolutely an opinion and it is not academically viable when you factor in Josephus who clearly notes that the servitude of the poor ones last deported off the land were the ones who served seventy years. Now ordinarily you could claim that there were several 70-year periods, one for the nations that began at the beginning of the NB empire. But Josephus specifically links the 70 years served by the poor people deported last with Jeremiah's prophecy! That means Jeremiah directly contradicts any opinions regarding the 70-year period of "servitude" by Jeremiah that is not connected with the last deportation.
IN the first year of the reign of Cyrus1 which was the seventieth from the day that our people were removed out of their own land into Babylon, God commiserated the captivity and calamity of these poor people, according as he had foretold to them by Jeremiah the prophet, before the destruction of the city, that after they had served Nebuchadnezzar and his posterity, and after they had undergone that servitude seventy years, he would restore them again to the land of their fathers, and they should build their temple, and enjoy their ancient prosperity
JC
[highlighting by bennyk]

I see nothing in Josephus' account quoted above which substantiates the claim highlighted above. What is recorded at Antiq. 11:1:1 does not require the complete depopulation of Judea, only an exile of Jews to Babylon(of some -- not necessarily all, and not necessarily the last) Jews.

It does NOT read something like: ' which was the seventieth from the day that the last of our people were removed out of their own land into Babylon', or: 'which was the seventieth from the day that our people were last removed out of their own land into Babylon'.

Several deportations to Babylon occurred at various times during the seventy years, but the SERVITUDE of Judea as a nation (those poor people!!!) need not begin with any of the deportations as recorded in the Bible.

73

The 70 years of devastation--as revealed by the Bible

by AddaGirl in

watchtower teachings say this period is from 607 bce to 537 bce.

most of the documentation relating to the seventy years indicates that period to be 609 bce to 539 bce, the rule of the babylonian empire.

i wrote to headquarters, because as a bible study student i knew i could ask questions about certain doctrines that those baptized cannot without consequence and some of the information i received from them was very helpful especially when it was used to verify the chronology of the kings of judah and israel through the bible.. the bible says there are actually (2) 70-year periods.. the first being one of servitude to the babylonians of both israel & judah from 609 bce to 539 bce.

bennyk

"Scholar" writes:

This period of servitude-desolation and exile wwas brought during the 18th On Nebuchadnezzer's reign and the 11 th of the last king of Judah, Zedekiah withthe destruction of Jerusalem in 607 BCE.

You wrote to me earlier:

This is simply your opinion and I disagree with this. You cite no scholarly or exegetical support for your opinion so I suggest you demonstrate why your claim is so.

I would like to suggest that you take a page from your own book. Since you style yourself a scholar, perhaps you would be willing to cite a reputable modern scholar to establish your claim that Jerusalem fell in 607 B.C.E.

The WTS interpretation requires the rejection of vast amounts of data indicating that Jerusalem did NOT fall in 607 B.C.E. There is no compelling reason for accepting the WTS doctrine in the face of an interpretation which violates neither the Scriptures nor secular history. The interpretation that the "seventy years" run from 609-539 B.C.E. violates neither the Scriptures, nor secular history. Therefore, the WTS teaching is to be rejected.

73

The 70 years of devastation--as revealed by the Bible

by AddaGirl in

watchtower teachings say this period is from 607 bce to 537 bce.

most of the documentation relating to the seventy years indicates that period to be 609 bce to 539 bce, the rule of the babylonian empire.

i wrote to headquarters, because as a bible study student i knew i could ask questions about certain doctrines that those baptized cannot without consequence and some of the information i received from them was very helpful especially when it was used to verify the chronology of the kings of judah and israel through the bible.. the bible says there are actually (2) 70-year periods.. the first being one of servitude to the babylonians of both israel & judah from 609 bce to 539 bce.

bennyk

"Scholar" writes:

This is simply your opinion and I disagree with this. You cite no scholarly or exegetical support for your opinion so I suggest you demonstrate why your claim is so. I would argue that all of what is said in verse 11 was included in the seventy years which was the land being devastated and servitude to Babylon. That is what the text plainly reads.

Yes, I had understood that you were (not yet) in agreement. My previous post demonstrated the claim; to wit:

the seventy years of servitude began before the desolation of Jerusalem. Cf. Jer. 27:1,6-8 [note past perfect tense in vs 6] and 28:1,2,11 [where the servitude is already under way]. If the Land were indeed "devastated" for seventy years following the fall of Jerusalem and the subsequent Exile, the 'seventy years servitude' would necessarily have ended roughly two decades before the End of the neo-Babylonian Empire.

When read in the context of chapters 27 and 28 the text in Jer. 25:11f reads other than you argue.

73

The 70 years of devastation--as revealed by the Bible

by AddaGirl in

watchtower teachings say this period is from 607 bce to 537 bce.

most of the documentation relating to the seventy years indicates that period to be 609 bce to 539 bce, the rule of the babylonian empire.

i wrote to headquarters, because as a bible study student i knew i could ask questions about certain doctrines that those baptized cannot without consequence and some of the information i received from them was very helpful especially when it was used to verify the chronology of the kings of judah and israel through the bible.. the bible says there are actually (2) 70-year periods.. the first being one of servitude to the babylonians of both israel & judah from 609 bce to 539 bce.

bennyk

It is likely "SCHOLAR" did not intend it so, but it is funny:

bennyk
Post 326
You are very sadly mistaken because you are paying close attention to what the text actually says.

Jeremiah 25:11,12 indicates that Judah and the nations would be in servitude to Babylon for a period of seventy years and that the land of Judah would also be devastated for seventy years. as in verse 11.

I am not mistaken -- sadly, happily, or otherwise. In verse eleven, the adverbial "seventy years" modifies only the phrase regarding the 'servitude'; it does NOT modify the phrase regarding the devastation. We know this because the seventy years of servitude began before the desolation of Jerusalem. Cf. Jer. 27:1,6-8 [note past perfect tense in vs 6] and 28:1,2,11 [where the servitude is already under way]. If the Land were indeed "devastated" for seventy years following the fall of Jerusalem and the subsequent Exile, the 'seventy years servitude' would necessarily have ended roughly two decades before the End of the neo-Babylonian Empire: Thus, the Watch Tower Society teaching is refuted by both the Scriptures and secular history.

73

The 70 years of devastation--as revealed by the Bible

by AddaGirl in

watchtower teachings say this period is from 607 bce to 537 bce.

most of the documentation relating to the seventy years indicates that period to be 609 bce to 539 bce, the rule of the babylonian empire.

i wrote to headquarters, because as a bible study student i knew i could ask questions about certain doctrines that those baptized cannot without consequence and some of the information i received from them was very helpful especially when it was used to verify the chronology of the kings of judah and israel through the bible.. the bible says there are actually (2) 70-year periods.. the first being one of servitude to the babylonians of both israel & judah from 609 bce to 539 bce.

bennyk

"Scholar" writes:

There being multiple 'seventy years' is impossible for this only confuses the subjects and using other dates such as 605 BCE or 609 BCE are also impossible for the beginning of the period is also impossible. Further, the ending of the period in 539 BCE is also sadly impossible.

Actually, you are very mistaken. Jeremiah 25:11b,12a states: "[T]hese nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years. And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon... " As the nations ceased their servitude in 539, the ending of the period in 539 B.C.E. is not only NOT "impossible" -- it is necessary.

73

The 70 years of devastation--as revealed by the Bible

by AddaGirl in

watchtower teachings say this period is from 607 bce to 537 bce.

most of the documentation relating to the seventy years indicates that period to be 609 bce to 539 bce, the rule of the babylonian empire.

i wrote to headquarters, because as a bible study student i knew i could ask questions about certain doctrines that those baptized cannot without consequence and some of the information i received from them was very helpful especially when it was used to verify the chronology of the kings of judah and israel through the bible.. the bible says there are actually (2) 70-year periods.. the first being one of servitude to the babylonians of both israel & judah from 609 bce to 539 bce.

bennyk

JCanon writes:

Thanks for your reply Addagirl...
when it so happened that our city was desolate during the interval of seventy years, until the days of Cyrus king of Persia.
The temple destruction in 586 BCE is confirmed above. Cyrus released the Jews in 537 BCE. At this point Jerusalem had been desolate for 50 years.
This is a direct contradictio. This says the CITY WAS DESOLATE for an interval of 70 years, until Cyrus, which means that the 70 years ended when Cyrus came to the throne.

No. It is not a contradiction: The text does NOT state that the city was desolate "for" an interval of 70 years -- "during" does not mean "for". The accounts in Josephus indicate that the temple (and Jerusalem) lay desolate FIFTY years (Apion 1:21), which fifty years were a part of the SEVENTY years of SERVITUDE (Antiquities 11:1:1). Apion 1:19 does NOT contradict this; it confirms that the fifty year's period of desolation occurred "during the interval of seventy years". The prophecies in Jeremiah do not indicate seventy years of "desolation", nor of "deportation" or 'captivity' (whether of a specific group, or viewed in the aggregate), but of servitude, i.e. "vassalage". Note that the prophecies as recorded in Jeremiah do not even require deportation and exile at all: pls cf. Jer. 27:7,8,11-13,17; 38:17,18.

The SEVENTY years of SERVITUDE (Antiquities 11:1:1) run from 609 B.C.E. (following the Assyrian Empire's crushing defeat at Haran and the subsequent vassalage of Judea to Babylon) until 539 B.C.E. (when Babylon itself was defeated). The FIFTY years of DESOLATION for the Temple (Apion 1:21) run from 587 B.C.E. (when Jerusalem and its Temple were destroyed) until 537 B.C.E. (when the foundations of the Temple were laid [second year of Cyrus]). The several deportations occurred at various times during the seventy years, but the SERVITUDE of Judea as a nation need not begin with any of the deportations as recorded in the Bible.

35

Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 4-20-08 WT Study (Presence)

by blondie in

jw
friends

"what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system things?"--matt.

q) 6 what does revelation chapter 12 help us to understand about christ's presence?

q) 8, 9. who would recognize the sign of christs presence and understand its meaning?.

bennyk

Thanks for your commentary, Blondie.

Thus, it was felt that in the modern-day fulfillment, Jesus was referring to the wicked "generation" of unbelievers who would see both the features that would characterize "the conclusion of the system of things" (syn.te'lei.a) and the system's end (te'los).

I have always loved how the Watch Tower Society switches to the passive voice when discussing the now-rejected teachings of the past -- almost as though some third party were somehow responsible, and the Society were merely an unwitting, innocent bystander. Why can't they write something a bit more direct (and honest): e.g. "We previously taught unequivocally in our exclusive, official capacity as the sole channel between God and men a doctrine which we are now changing and which you are henceforth forbidden to believe. Believe the new teaching! Or else! (Until the next time we change it.)"

221

Watchtower Comments THE GENERATION CHANGE Featuring LEOLAIA

by V in

bennyk

Christ's faithful anointed brothers, the modern-day John class, have recognized this sign as if it were a flash of lightning and have understood its true meaning.

Christ's faithful anointed brothers, the modern-day John class in 1876: "Hey, did we just see a big bright light two years ago?" "I guess so."

Christ's faithful anointed brothers, the modern-day John class in 1900: "We'll see something REALLY BIG, VERY SOON !!!!!!!"

Christ's faithful anointed brothers, the modern-day John class in 1914: "Did you see anything?" "No, not me." "Me, neither."

Christ's faithful anointed brothers, the modern-day John class in 1920: (silence)

Christ's faithful anointed brothers, the modern-day John class in 1930: (silence)

Christ's faithful anointed brothers, the modern-day John class in 1943: "Hey, that big bright light we thought we saw in 1874 wasn't really a big bright light at all. Or even anything -- because there wasn't anything to see in 1874. But I'm absolutely CERTAIN I saw something in 1914." "Me, too!!! It was a UFO!!! And if other people claim they didn't see it, or that we saw something in 1874, they deserve to be dead for all eternity!!!"

33

Did Jehovah's Witnesses ever claim they were inspired?

by slimboyfat in

jehovah's witnesses insist they are not false prophets despite making false predictions because they never claimed inspiration.

but is that true?

well most of the time they seem to have been careful only to claim divine "guidance" or that they are "god's channel".

bennyk

Publications of the Watch Tower Society establish the view that they claim to speak for God. Rutherford stated:

“These are the anointed class on earth, and these are they who are watchmen and who joyfully do the will of the Lord on earth. Since he commands what shall be done on earth we should have no difficulty in finding that he is directing his work. The Watch Tower is the medium of communication with the various ones who are watchmen and who love the Lord. The Lord has long used it for that purpose. During the year just past THE WATCH TOWER, we believe, has set forth some meat in due season sent from the Lord. (WT 01. Dec. 1925, p.355)

“Without a doubt the Lord uses his angels to cause the truth to be published in The Watchtower, and the faithful followers of Christ Jesus who hear and give heed to the message of truth from the Lord and render obedience thereto are thus a spectacle or theater to others, both men and angels...” (WT 01. Feb. 1935, p.41)

“In 1927 God began to reveal to his people the meaning of the dream had by Nebuchadnezzar. Thereafter, in August 1930, by and through the columns of The Watchtower God caused to be published the proper understanding of the dream of Nebuchadnezzar. As stepping stones gradually leading up to the understanding of the great image was the publication of the articles in The Watchtower, to wit, “The Winepress,” September 1, 1926 ; “The Stone in Zion,” October 15, 1926. No man can properly interpret prophecy, and the Lord sends his angels to transmit correct information to his people, and when these truths come to his people and the facts fit the prophecy, then they should take it as from the Lord and receive it with rejoicing.” (WT 15. Feb. 1935, p.52) .

(The Society’s new understanding of Nebuchadnezzar‘s dream, although declared to be “proper”, “correct”, and “from the Lord”, has since been abandoned as false.) Thus the Lord gets the blame for Rutherford’s erroneous teachings and false prophecies.

Rutherford even went so far as to equate his false prophecy regarding 1925 with the Gospel:

“Therefore it seems that now is the time for the church to proclaim far and wide in Christendom this good news. Hence it is the purpose of the Society to ask every public speaker, all the Pilgrim brethren, all the elders of classes, all who can give a public discourse in every part of Christendom, to prepare a discourse upon the subject: “The World Has Ended~Millions Now Living Will Never Die,” and to herald this message as a witness to Christendom; and it would seem if the church fails to do this, the very stones will cry out.” (WT 01. July 1920, p.200)

“Surely the words of the Master are now in course of fulfillment: "This gospel ["The World Has Ended: Millions Now Living Will Never Die"] shall be preached in all the world for a witness, and then shall the end come". The Master’s inspiring words thrill the heart of the Christian and spur him on with greater zeal to give the witness now. We urge the dear brethren everywhere, everyone who is qualified, according to the Lord’s arrangement, for speaking to the public, to use for all public addresses the subject: "Millions Now Living Will Never Die". It is the message that we want to get to the people. It is the message of the hour. It is the message that must go to all Christendom as a witness before the final end of the present order.” (WT 15. Oct. 1920, p.310 bracketed material in original)

8

Barber training for elders. 1 Cor 11:6 is ignored.

by Open mind in

i wonder if the elders will be trained on how to shear off a woman's hair at the new elder's school in patterson this year?.

"for if a woman does not cover herself, let her also be shorn;..." .

1 corinthians 11:6 nwt.

bennyk

My wife actually took a bit of flak from the Elders and their louder halves because she covers.

My wife and I were not amused.