The Scriptures provide no suggestion that Nathan's offhand remark was to have been taken as divinely revealed truth, but in any event, Jehovah himself corrected the prophet that very night. ( "And it came about on that night that the word of Jehovah came to Nathan..." [2 Samuel 7:4]) It is not as though the prophet had preached the same (or varying) incorrect statement(s) repeatedly, over and over for decades on end, demanding that others accede to his belief(s) and condemning those who could not. That is, after all, what the Society's record shows that they have done.
bennyk
JoinedPosts by bennyk
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144
The False Prophet Nathan?
by brotherdan inmy mom is addicted to the wts.
i've recently brought up the many false prophecies and she calls almost every week to show me new things that the society has said about false prophets and how they are not one.. the latest was the account where king david wanted to build god a temple.
he told nathan the prophet about his idea and nathan basically said, well god is with you, you should do it.
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39
@ djeggnog
by bennyk in2:16), and sanctified (john 17:19; 1 cor.
7:25; 1 john 2:1), high priest (heb.
3:29; 4:7; titus 3:6,7; heb.
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bennyk
djeggnog writes: "[H]as the WTS ever indicated that its words (or edicts) were inspired or that it had been given the gift of prophecy so that it could make predictions about the future? Then how can it be said that the WTS has ever been a 'false prophet'?"
My response: The WTS writes in the 08. June 1986 Awake! (p.9): "The New American Bible correctly states: ' Prophet means "one who speaks for another," especially for God. It does not necessarily mean that he predicts the future!"'
Bearing such in mind, consider the following quotes:13 The fact that decides the answer to the question is, not, Do all the clergy of Roman Catholicism and of Protestantism agree that Jehovah’s witnesses have been and are God’s prophet to the nations? but, Who discerned the divine will for Christians in this time of the world’s end and offered themselves to do it? Who have undertaken God’s foreordained work for this day of judgment of the nations? Who have answered the call to the work and have done it down till this year 1958? Whom has God actually used as his prophet?14 By the historical facts of the case Christendom is beaten back in defeat. Jehovah’s witnesses are deeply grateful today that the plain facts show that God has been pleased to use them. All the preaching and all the Bible educational work that they have done till now in 175 countries and islands of the sea they confess has been, not by help of a military army, nor by human power, but by God’s spirit, his invisible active force. (Zech. 4:6, AV) It has been because Jehovah thrust out his hand of power and touched their lips and put his words in their mouths. It has evidently been because he commissioned them to be over the nations and over the kingdoms. Happy are all those who have seen what the work of Jehovah God for now is and who have volunteered to do it. (w59 1/15 pp. 40-41 pars. 13-14)
22 As Jehovah revealed his truths by means of the first-century Christian congregation so he does today by means of the present-day Christian congregation. Through this agency he is having carried out prophesying on an intensified and unparalleled scale. All this activity is not an accident. Jehovah is the one behind all of it. The abundance of spiritual food and the amazing details of Jehovah’s purposes that have been revealed to Jehovah’s anointed witnesses are clear evidence that they are the ones mentioned by Jesus when he foretold a “faithful and discreet slave” class that would be used to dispense God’s progressive revelations in these last days. Of this class Jesus said: “Truly I say to you, He will appoint him over all his belongings.”-Matt. 24:47. (w64 6/15 p. 365 par. 22)
36 None of us should want to be like these indecisive, unresponding ones! Better it is to know now, rather than too late, that there is an authentic prophetic class of Christians among us, and to accept and act upon the Bible message, “not as the word of men, but, just as it truthfully is, as the word of God.” (1 Thessalonians 2:13) Concerning the message faithfully delivered by the Ezekiel classJehovah positively states that it “must come true.” He asseverates that those who wait undecided until it does “come true” “will also have to know that a prophet himself had proved to be in the midst of them.” (Ezekiel 33:33) Such belated knowledge, however, will not mean salvation for them, for it will find their hearts and their ways to be unchanged.
37 What is to be gained by hesitating and doubting to the end that Jehovah can raise up and has raised up a genuine “prophet” within our generation? (“The Nations Shall Know That I Am Jehovah”-How? chap. 15 p. 292 pars. 36-37)However, Jehovah did not let the people of Christendom, as led by the clergy, go without being warned that the League was a counterfeit substitute for the real kingdom of God. He had a “prophet” to warn them. This “prophet” was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah’s Christian witnesses. They are still proclaiming a warning, and have been joined and assisted in their commissioned work by hundreds of thousands of persons who have listened to their message with belief.
Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a “prophet” of God. It is another thing to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record. What does it show? (w72 4/1 p. 197 ‘They Shall Know that a Prophet Was Among Them’)22 The holy spirit, which Jehovah prophesied that he would pour out in the last days, has not ceased to operate, for the remnant are still baptizing disciples of Christ in the name of that spirit. (Matthew 28:19, 20; Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21) The announced purpose behind God’s pouring out of his spirit upon all sorts of flesh was that the recipients thereof might prophesy. The facts substantiate that the remnant of Christ’s anointed disciples have been doing that prophesying to all the nations for a witness in favor of God’s kingdom. Logically, then, they must be the ones upon whom God’s spirit has actually been poured out. That spirit is behind their worldwide preaching.Why argue about it? (Holy Spirit-The Force Behind the Coming New Order! chap. 8 p. 148 par. 22)
You will be interested to learn that God has on earth a people, all of whom are prophets, or witnesses for God. In fact, they are known throughout the world as Jehovah’s Witnesses. Out of love for God and his Word, they are carrying on a universal Bible educational work among old and young, rich and poor. They have hundreds of thousands of full-time voluntary workers, some of whom translate and print Bibles and Bible educational literature that is distributed inexpensively, or even free of charge. They are assisted by millions of part-time workers. Any of these will be happy to help you “discern the signs of the times” and embrace the wonderful hope contained in God’s Word, the Bible. (g86 6/8 p. 9 “Would That All Were Prophets!”)
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In response to my statement "Even more egregious is the fact that the Watch Tower Society is perfectly willing to attempt to establish its credentials using distorted statements and outright lies", djeggnog writes: "If the WTS should be mistaken in its adherence to Acts 15:29 with respect to blood transfusions, and someone dies, I'm thinking that Jesus Christ has been empowered to resurrect the dead."My response: The citations I gave you had nothing to do with the Society's blood doctrine. They were examples of the Watch Tower Society "rewriting" their history, i.e. "lying". Kindly respond to the citations given in my post...
djeggnog writes: "Not just the WTS, but all of Jehovah's Witnesses know from having studied God's word that if one has not been anointed and adopted by God so that they enjoy spiritual sonship, then one is a party to the New Covenant."
My response: I trust that was a typographical error.
djeggnog writes: "Well, if you have a reply to make, then make it."
My response: I question your sincerity...
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Australian brothers VERY negative comments regarding new "generations" ... some leaving Bethel..will this blow up in the Watchtowers face?
by Witness 007 ina brother i spoke with from bethel to me seemed discouraged and lacking zeal latley...he spoke of leaving which shocked me since he was there for decades...he left to get a full time job!!!
it was his whole reason for living since i've known him!
others have said the new doctrine of "blended generations" of anionted seeing armagedon is "confusing" or "i just don't get it"...one brother my only close friend is furious and said i qoute..."they seem to be blowing smoke up our ass!
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bennyk
alice.in.wonderland writes: As for anyone's hopes about anyone leaving Jehovah's Organization because of a refinement to Matthew 24:34 (a scripture that can only be defined by the passage of time) this isn't why people resist the truth. Most people don't fully understand the grand theme of the Bible let alone understand the true meaning of Matthew 24:34.
My response:
...including the Watch Tower Society. The Society specifically and preemptively denied that the "Generation" of Matthew 24:34 could possibly be the "Anointed".
"When Jesus used 'generation' for the last time, he was on the Mount of Olives with four apostles. (Mark 13:3) Those men, who were not yet anointed with spirit nor part of a Christian congregation, certainly did not constitute either a 'generation' or a race of people." (Watchtower 01. Nov. 1995, pp. 30, 31)
"What did Jesus mean by 'generation,' both in his day and in ours? Many scriptures confirm that Jesus did not use 'generation' with regard to some small or distinct group, meaning only the Jewish leaders or only his loyal disciples." (Watchtower 01. June 1997, p.28)
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64
Help with irrefutable arguments- creating dissonance
by confliction inhello- i'm arguing with my parents now... well, call it debating.
i'm trying to give them a question they'll actually think about- something that will make them want to do more research.
a question (or questions), that if right, will make them reconsider whether they are in the "truth".... .
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bennyk
(Thank you, Lady Lee for fixing the thread!)
@djeggnog:
My response:
I do indeed speak to others regarding the "good news", viz.:
Despite the fact that men are actually born estranged from God (Rom. 3:9,23; 5:12), God sent His Son to die on behalf of sinful mankind (Matt. 20:28; Rom. 3:28; 8:32; 1 John 4:9,10). Those exercising faith in the ransom sacrifice of the Son are promised full forgiveness of sin (Acts 13:38,39; Rom. 4:25a; 2 Cor. 5:19; Eph. 1:7; Col. 1:14; Heb. 10:12,17,18; 1 John 1:7,9; 2:2; Rev. 1:5), are justified (i.e. declared righteous) (Acts 13:38,39; Rom. 3:26,28; 4:25b-5:1; 5:9,18; 8:33; 1 Cor. 6:12; 2 Cor. 5:21; Gal. 2:16), and sanctified (John 17:19; 1 Cor. 6:11; Eph. 5:25b-27; 2 Thess. 2:13; Heb. 10:10; 13:12). As such, they are reconciled to God (Rom. 5:10; 1 Cor. 1:21-23; 2 Cor. 5:18,19; Eph. 2:16) and adopted as His children (John 1:12; Rom. 8:14-16; Gal. 3:26; 4:4-7; Eph. 1:5; 1 John 3:1), thereby becoming brothers of Christ (Heb. 2:11), who serves as their Advocate (Rom. 8:34; Heb. 7:25; 1 John 2:1), High Priest (Heb. 4:4; 7:26,27), and Mediator (1 Tim. 2:5; Heb. 8:6; 9:15; 12:24). Christians thus become heirs of God and joint-heirs of Christ (Rom. 8:17; Gal. 3:29; 4:7; Titus 3:6,7; Heb. 9:15; Rev. 21:7), who graciously grants everlasting life (John 3:36; 5:24,39,40; 6:40,47; 10:28; 1 John 4:9; 5:11; Rev. 5:21).
As you see, the Gospel I preach is scriptural.I agree that God's Spirit did operate on Balaam. It is ironic that you (no doubt following the Watch Tower Society) call Balaam a "false prophet" despite the fact that the Scriptures testify that what he prophesied came true (Deut. 23:5), but you will allow no one to call the Society a "false prophet" despite their numerous false prophecies. You make repeated references to "truth", but seem to be little concerned that it be ... true. Even more egregious is the fact that the Watch Tower Society is perfectly willing to attempt to establish its credentials using distorted statements and outright lies. As examples thereof: Watchtower 01. Nov. 1952, p. 658 § 16; Watchtower 15. June 1954, p. 370 § 4; Watchtower 15. Oct. 1956, p. 614; Watchtower 15. Feb. 1966, p. 103; Watchtower 15. Oct. 1966, p. 617 § 15; Awake! 08. Oct. 1972, p. 15; Awake! 22. Jan. 1973, p. 8; Yearbook 1975, p. 37; Watchtower 01. April 1984, p. 16 § 5; Watchtower 01. Dec. 1984, p. 14 § 20; Watchtower 01. Sep. 1985, p. 24 § 11; Watchtower 15. Sept. 1998, p. 15. However, the Scriptures assure us that "no lie originates with the truth" (1 John 2:21).
Although I do not claim to be conversant with the teachings of every denomination or sect that calls itself "christian", I cannot name any such that do not preach God's kingdom as mankind's only hope. Can you? While it is true that as individual denominations they may not preach in as many lands as does the Watch Tower Society, in the aggregate those other denominations preach more extensively. Furthermore, the Society preaches a "different Gospel" (Watchtower 01. May 1981, p. 17 §3) which stands under Apostolic condemnation (Gal. 1:8,9) and therefore does not fulfill Matthew 24:14. In fact, the Society's doctrines deny 99.8% of their followers entrance into the New Covenant, which means the so-called Witnesses are ' without hope and without God' (Eph. 2:12).
In response to your statement that you believe the Watch Tower Society was so appointed by Jesus although it would be "rightly branded apostate" by "its own published standard," I cannot make a reply that would not appear sarcastic or insulting...
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WT advice about unbelieving mates or DF'ed family members
by OnTheWayOut inthis is a revival of an old thread: http://www.jwsupportforum.com/index.php?topic=8144.0;topicseen.
i revived it as i was looking for it to show to someone else.. it seems they wish they could legally kill people's own family members.
since they cannot, they encourage believing mates to prostitute themselves with the unbeliever- trade sex (marital due) for financial support.. here's the older wt article that reveals "their" attitude toward unbelieving or df'ed family members:.
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bennyk
The law of the land and God’s law through Christ forbid us to kill apostates, even though they be members of our own flesh-and-blood family relationship.
Yeah. One can almost feel their dismay. After all, if you can't kill your relatives, whom can you kill?
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39
@ djeggnog
by bennyk in2:16), and sanctified (john 17:19; 1 cor.
7:25; 1 john 2:1), high priest (heb.
3:29; 4:7; titus 3:6,7; heb.
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bennyk
This is in response to a thread to which I was unable to reply.
djeggnog wrote (on page 5440):
@bennyk:
I find that more often times than not, this question you ask is raised due to a failure on the part of those who have been baptized to comprehend what it means for someone to have God’s spirt in them or for God’s spirit to be operative upon them. At 1Thessalonians 4:3-8, the apostle Paul states that whomever it is that has God’s spirit in them "that shows disregard," even contempt, for what things they have learned to be God’s will, he or she is showing disregard, but not for man, not for the brother or sister from whom they came to learn the truth, but for God, since it was He that put His holy spirit in them. Everything that we read in the Bible is God-breathed, that is, these things were written down by some 40 men that were inspired by God to do so, and while there are many people today that have voiced many doubts as to whether God had anything at all to do with the passages we read in our Bibles today, for many of us that have studied the Bible for many, many years, we have no doubts whatsoever as to whose thoughts were written down by these men.
I know you remember the following words that Jesus uttered when praying on behalf of his followers back then that had been actively taking in knowledge of his Father, the only true God, Jehovah, and of the Lord Jesus Christ: "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ"; these familiar words I've quoted from John 17:3. But focusing on the words "taking in knowledge," to what "knowledge" do you suppose Jesus was referring here? At John 17:17 refers to this "knowledge" of God and Christ as being "the truth: "Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth." When Jesus says what he does at John 17:3, he was referring to "the truth," and he left us in no doubt as to what the truth is, Jesus stating here that God's word "is truth."
The scriptural injunction placed on all Christians is that they should "go on acquiring power in the Lord and in the mightiness in his strength," and to"make sure of all things; hold fast to what is fine." (Ephesians 6:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:21) This requires that Christians take in knowledge of the Bible so that they are sure of what they say when they speak to others about the good news of God's kingdom. But do you speak to others about the good news? Ever? If so, what do you say?
I would note that earlier, by what Jesus says at John 14:16, 17, about "the helper" being with us forever, he refers to this "helper" as "the spirit of the truth," and says that while we ourselves would "know" the "helper" because the spirit of the truth "remains" with us and is also in us, the world cannot receive the helper because the world can neither "behold" or discern the truth, nor does it possess the knowledge that we have. Why?
At 1 Corinthians 2:13, 14, the apostle Paul tell us why, saying that "a physical man does not receive the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him," and so Paul points out that this is why the world "cannot get to know them," since the things 'taught by the spirit of the truth' can only be "examined spiritually." But at 1 Corinthians 3:1-3, Paul goes to say about those brothers that walk according to "the spirit of the world" with jealousy and strife, that they aren't walking as "spiritual men," but, rather, as "fleshly men," that they are walking as "babes in Christ," for unlike the physical man, these "fleshly" Christians have some knowledge the truth. Just as Jesus had God's spirit and sanctified himself by means of the truth for our sake by making himself "a vessel for an honorable purpose, ... useful to his owner," those that also have God's spirit have themselves been sanctified as 'vessels for an honorable purpose' according to God's will through the offering of Jesus' ransom "once for all time." (John 17:19; 2 Timothy 2:21; Hebrews 10:10)
So then whether one should be a spiritual man or woman or a fleshly man or woman, you have come to know the spirit of the truth, and this is not something that a physical man or woman in the part of the world that is alienated from God can say. Consequently, the reason you can understand at least some of what I'm saying here in this post is because some of God's spirit is in you; for example, were I to say to you that the account at Luke 16:19-31 about the rich man and Lazarus is a parable and is not to be taken literally, or that Jesus died on a Friday and rose on a Sunday, or even that 1 John 5:7 as rendered in the KJV Bible, your knowing these things proves the validity of what Jesus says at John 14:16, 17, about "the spirit of the truth" being with us forever, even if you should now blaspheme this same spirit by suggesting that God's spirit cannot operate upon a false prophet; of course it can.
Did God's spirit operate on Balaam despite the fact that he was himself a false prophet that orchestrated the events that led to the deaths of 24,000 Israelites? According to what God's spirit breathed into Moses and into the apostle Peter, whether you should now accept nothing of all that the Bible teaches, is your answer to this question Yes or no? (See Numbers 24:2; 2 Peter 2:16)
If, on one hand, your opposition to the things you were taught by the spirit of the truth should be due to deception or imperfection, God's knows, but if, on the other hand, your opposition to God's spirit should be both wilful and deliberate actions on your part, then as someone that knows the truth, the you must know that such blasphemy will never be forgiven you. But why fight against the truth? Why should anyone fight about God at all? Why should anyone be on the other side of the issue of universal sovereignty?
Why all of the "jealousy and strife" over the work of salvation that is being done through the imperfect men and women that are a part of God's visible channel of communication, a work that He wills to be done before the end comes? (2 Peter 3:9; Matthew 24:14) Why meddle or attempt to interfere with the preaching work being done by those folks that are the ones wearing the white robes? (Matthew 12:30; Acts 5:38, 39; Revelation 7:9, 14)
And why would anyone not be on Jesus' side of the issue? I mean, if every has a white robe on, that is, everyone but you, how would the angels fail to see who is rightly a member of the assembly standing before God's throne holding palm branches in their hands? The soiled robe will give you away! Why on earth would anyone at all want to be found "liars against the truth" when there is no successful winning strategy that can be employed against Jesus and His angels when they come as executioners to bring God's vengeance against all opposers of the truth? (James 3:14; Ephesians 4:25; 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10)
As to that statement of yours questioning whether or not the fact that the association of Jehovah's Witnesses today is the only Christian group that is preaching the established kingdom of God in the hands of Jesus Christ evinces that what Jehovah's Witnesses are doing today fulfills Jesus' prophecy, may I ask you: Do you know of any other Christian group, apart from Jehovah's Witnesses, that you know to be preaching and declaring God's kingdom as mankind's only hope for a witness to all of the nations on the planet that they are able to reach with this message as foretold at Matthew 24:14? If so, what is the name of this Christian group.
Lastly, you asked if I honestly believed Jesus would appoint the faithful and discreet slave over all of his belongings when the organization itself would be "rightly branded apostate" by "its own published standard," and I believe the 'faithful slave' was so appointed by Jesus even though you believe them to be apostates.
My response:
I do indeed speak to others regarding the "good news", viz.:
Despite the fact that men are actually born estranged from God (Rom. 3:9,23; 5:12), God sent His Son to die on behalf of sinful mankind (Matt. 20:28; Rom. 3:28; 8:32; 1 John 4:9,10). Those exercising faith in the ransom sacrifice of the Son are promised full forgiveness of sin (Acts 13:38,39; Rom. 4:25a; 2 Cor. 5:19; Eph. 1:7; Col. 1:14; Heb. 10:12,17,18; 1 John 1:7,9; 2:2; Rev. 1:5), are justified (i.e. declared righteous) (Acts 13:38,39; Rom. 3:26,28; 4:25b-5:1; 5:9,18; 8:33; 1 Cor. 6:12; 2 Cor. 5:21; Gal. 2:16), and sanctified (John 17:19; 1 Cor. 6:11; Eph. 5:25b-27; 2 Thess. 2:13; Heb. 10:10; 13:12). As such, they are reconciled to God (Rom. 5:10; 1 Cor. 1:21-23; 2 Cor. 5:18,19; Eph. 2:16) and adopted as His children (John 1:12; Rom. 8:14-16; Gal. 3:26; 4:4-7; Eph. 1:5; 1 John 3:1), thereby becoming brothers of Christ (Heb. 2:11), who serves as their Advocate (Rom. 8:34; Heb. 7:25; 1 John 2:1), High Priest (Heb. 4:4; 7:26,27), and Mediator (1 Tim. 2:5; Heb. 8:6; 9:15; 12:24). Christians thus become heirs of God and joint-heirs of Christ (Rom. 8:17; Gal. 3:29; 4:7; Titus 3:6,7; Heb. 9:15; Rev. 21:7), who graciously grants everlasting life (John 3:36; 5:24,39,40; 6:40,47; 10:28; 1 John 4:9; 5:11; Rev. 5:21).
As you see, the Gospel I preach is scriptural.I agree that God's Spirit did operate on Balaam. It is ironic that you (no doubt following the Watch Tower Society) call Balaam a "false prophet" despite the fact that the Scriptures testify that what he prophesied came true (Deut. 23:5), but you will allow no one to call the Society a "false prophet" despite their numerous false prophecies. You make repeated references to "truth", but seem to be little concerned that it be ... true. Even more egregious is the fact that the Watch Tower Society is perfectly willing to attempt to establish its credentials using distorted statements and outright lies. As examples thereof: Watchtower 01. Nov. 1952, p. 658 § 16; Watchtower 15. June 1954, p. 370 § 4; Watchtower 15. Oct. 1956, p. 614; Watchtower 15. Feb. 1966, p. 103; Watchtower 15. Oct. 1966, p. 617 § 15; Awake! 08. Oct. 1972, p. 15; Awake! 22. Jan. 1973, p. 8; Yearbook 1975, p. 37; Watchtower 01. April 1984, p. 16 § 5; Watchtower 01. Dec. 1984, p. 14 § 20; Watchtower 01. Sep. 1985, p. 24 § 11; Watchtower 15. Sept. 1998, p. 15. However, the Scriptures assure us that "no lie originates with the truth" (1 John 2:21).
Although I do not claim to be conversant with the teachings of every denomination or sect that calls itself "christian", I cannot name any such that do not preach God's kingdom as mankind's only hope. Can you? While it is true that as individual denominations they may not preach in as many lands as does the Watch Tower Society, in the aggregate those other denominations preach more extensively. Furthermore, the Society preaches a "different Gospel" (Watchtower 01. May 1981, p. 17 §3) which stands under Apostolic condemnation (Gal. 1:8,9) and therefore does not fulfill Matthew 24:14. In fact, the Society's doctrines deny 99.8% of their followers entrance into the New Covenant, which means the so-called Witnesses are ' without hope and without God' (Eph. 2:12).
In response to your statement that you believe the Watch Tower Society was so appointed by Jesus although it would be "rightly branded apostate" by "its own published standard," I cannot make a reply that would not appear sarcastic or insulting...
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64
Help with irrefutable arguments- creating dissonance
by confliction inhello- i'm arguing with my parents now... well, call it debating.
i'm trying to give them a question they'll actually think about- something that will make them want to do more research.
a question (or questions), that if right, will make them reconsider whether they are in the "truth".... .
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bennyk
djeggnog writes: "But it is evident that while none of them were inspired, God's spirit was upon all of these men, imperfect though they were, and God used them to prepare the way that ultimately led to our being an integral part of the fulfillment of many of the prophecies contained in the book of Revelation and Jesus' prophecy concerning the worldwide preaching work that only Jehovah's Witnesses are doing."
I fail to see any evidence for believing God's Spirit is/was upon false prophets, or that he used such men, nor do I find any evidence suggesting that Jehovah's Witnesses today are fulfilling Jesus' prophecy in Matthew 24:14. Perhaps you could explain your statement.
Perhaps you could also answer my question from post 486 (page two): Do you honestly believe the Lord appointed over all his belongings an organisation that (by its own published standard) would be 'rightly branded apostate, with whom faithful Christians would not fellowship'?
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64
Help with irrefutable arguments- creating dissonance
by confliction inhello- i'm arguing with my parents now... well, call it debating.
i'm trying to give them a question they'll actually think about- something that will make them want to do more research.
a question (or questions), that if right, will make them reconsider whether they are in the "truth".... .
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bennyk
djeggnog writes: "anyone teaching old doctrines are not Christians, are not worshipping the true God [...] An individual that teaches wrong doctrine wouldn't even be someone that Jehovah would have invited into His spiritual temple where He dwells in our midst in person, and not just in spirit, for God's temple is a Holy Place and only true worshippers of God can enter the God's temple. "
The Watch Tower Society itself does teach old doctrines (the identification of the "Generation" of Matthew chapter 24 as the "Anointed" was originally published as "Truth" in 1927).
Furthermore, according to the Society, they were "apostates, with whom faithful Christians would not fellowship":
W 01. April 1986 QfR:
Do we have Scriptural precedent for taking such a strict position? Indeed we do! Paul wrote about some in his day: "Their word will spread like gangrene. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of that number. These very men have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred; and they are subverting the faith of some." (2 Timothy 2:17, 18; see also Matthew 18:6.) There is nothing to indicate that these men did not believe in God, in the Bible, in Jesus’ sacrifice. Yet, on this one basic point, what they were teaching as to the time of the resurrection, Paul rightly branded them as apostates, with whom faithful Christians would not fellowship.
You see, in 1919 -- the year in which the Society claims they were chosen by the Lord and appointed over all his belongings (WT, 15. March 1990, p.15) -- they were still teaching that the resurrection had begun in 1878 (WT 01. May 1919, Reprints p.6426), which view they continued to hold until 1927, and which view they now admit was false.
Do you honestly believe the Lord appointed over all his belongings an organisation that (by its own published standard) would be 'rightly branded apostate, with whom faithful Christians would not fellowship'?
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64
Help with irrefutable arguments- creating dissonance
by confliction inhello- i'm arguing with my parents now... well, call it debating.
i'm trying to give them a question they'll actually think about- something that will make them want to do more research.
a question (or questions), that if right, will make them reconsider whether they are in the "truth".... .
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bennyk
djeggnog writes: "Would you be disfellowshipped today from the Watchtower, if you believed and taught the Society’s doctrines of 1920? _____YES __x__NO"
Actually, according to the QfR in the 01. April 1986 Watchtower, the answer is "yes."
*** w86 4/1 pp. 30-31 Questions From Readers ***
Questions From ReadersWhy have Jehovah's Witnesses disfellowshipped (excommunicated) for apostasy some who still profess belief in God, the Bible, and Jesus Christ?
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Approved association with Jehovah's Witnesses requires accepting the entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah's Witnesses. What do such beliefs include?
That the great issue before humankind is the rightfulness of Jehovah's sovereignty, which is why he has allowed wickedness so long. (Ezekiel 25:17) That Jesus Christ had a prehuman existence and is subordinate to his heavenly Father. (John 14:28) That there is a "faithful and discreet slave" upon earth today ‘entrusted with all of Jesus' earthly interests,' which slave is associated with the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses. (Matthew 24:45-47) That 1914 marked the end of the Gentile Times and the establishment of the Kingdom of God in the heavens, as well as the time for Christ's foretold presence. (Luke 21:7-24; Revelation 11:15-12:10) That only 144,000 Christians will receive the heavenly reward. (Revelation 14:1, 3) That Armageddon, referring to the battle of the great day of God the Almighty, is near. (Revelation 16:14, 16; 19:11-21) That it will be followed by Christ's Millennial Reign, which will restore an earth-wide paradise. That the first to enjoy it will be the present "great crowd" of Jesus' "other sheep."-John 10:16; Revelation 7:9-17; 21:3, 4."In 1920, among other false doctrines, the official teaching of the Watch Tower Society was that the faithful and discreet slave" was C. T. Russell; that the Kingdom of God was established in the heavens in 1878, and that "Christ's foretold presence" had begun in 1874; that both the 144 000 and the "Great Crowd" would receive the heavenly reward... Therefore, one would indeed be disfellowshipped for believing and teaching the Society's doctrines of 1920.
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How to respond to "Whoelse is preaching the good news worldwide?"
by EndofMysteries inthis scripture stands out to me...... 1 cor 1:17-21 for christ dispatched me, not to go baptizing, but to go declaring the good news, not with wisdom of speech, that the torture stake of the christ should not be made useless.. 18 for the speech about the torture stake is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is gods power.
19 for it is written: i will make the wisdom of the wise [men] perish, and the intelligence of the intellectual [men] i will shove aside.
20 where is the wise man?
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bennyk
debator writes (post 115): "Witnesses are the first Christian group in 1700 years to go back to Preaching about Jehovah our Almighty God THROUGH his son Jesus and not putting his son Jesus in his father's place."
So... you're telling us that Almighty God had the Faithful and Discreet Slave Class (which the Watch Tower Society says has had a continual existence since 33 C.E.) preach for 1700 years what you believe to be a false doctrine? That's what you're telling us?