Correction: The sentence should have read: "I am sorry if the word 'promise' in my opening post misled you. I proclaim these promises as a present possession, having already been fulfilled."
bennyk
JoinedPosts by bennyk
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@ djeggnog
by bennyk in2:16), and sanctified (john 17:19; 1 cor.
7:25; 1 john 2:1), high priest (heb.
3:29; 4:7; titus 3:6,7; heb.
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39
@ djeggnog
by bennyk in2:16), and sanctified (john 17:19; 1 cor.
7:25; 1 john 2:1), high priest (heb.
3:29; 4:7; titus 3:6,7; heb.
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bennyk
djeggnog writes: "I read the quotes in your post, but what my reading of them told me is that you believe them to support your point of view. Your point of view seems to me to me -- and I could be wrong here, so please forgive me if I have totally understood it -- that the WTS is not being used by God today as His prophet. Isn't this really your point? If I am correct about this being your point in the main, then why do you claim that I have given you "no response" to the many quotes you provided in your post from various publications produced by the WTS? If you were to look at the big picture, responding to all that you have been saying here, including these quotes, is really all that I've been doing in this thread. For example, in your previous post, you objected to Jehovah's Witnesses being referred to as "prophets," even though that is exactly what all Jehovah's Witnesses are."
My response: in your post 38 (page one), you asked: "has the WTS ever indicated that its words (or edicts) were inspired or that it had been given the gift of prophecy so that it could make predictions about the future? Then how can it be said that the WTS has ever been a 'false prophet'?" It is for that reason that I provided quotes indicating the Society's spurious claims regarding God 'put[ting] his words in their mouths', and being 'behind all their preaching and educational work'. I am pleased that you acknowledge that they are "prophets" for the record of their writings proves them unequivocally "false prophets". After all, the Society itself aptly states: "How will Jehovah show that such clergy prophets are fakes? By not fulfilling what they announce to be “an utterance!” or what they presume to speak in his name. He does not back up their falsehood. “‘Here I am against the prophets of false dreams,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘who relate them and cause my people to wander about [going astray] because of their falsehoods and because of their boasting.’ ‘But I myself did not send them or command them. So they will by no means benefit this people,’ is the utterance of Jehovah.” (Jer. 23:32) Too bad for the people!" (w79 9/1 pp. 29-30, §29 The Royal “Shepherd” of Bible Prophecy) Yes, too bad for those who are affiliated with the Watch Tower Society.
Additionally, you write: " Jehovah's Witnesses aren't just prophets that have been given a commission by Jesus to speak God's words to others, but we are ministers of the New Covenant kindly given by God to those who have the work of bearing witness to Jesus and in company with the faithful slave, God's anointed..." The Society denies your claim: "While the 'other sheep' would not be of the 'little flock,' they would be ministers of God, too, but not ministers of the new covenant." (Worldwide Security Under the "Prince of Peace", p.108) It appears that you are not especially conversant with the Society's teachings. Furthermore, you write: "we, Jesus' other sheep, who are serving alongside the remnant of that "little flock" in the earthly realm of God's House, giving direct worship to God, day and night, in the courtyards of God's Great Spiritual Temple, which is a holy place." The Scriptures place the "great crowd" in the naos, not in the courtyards (cf. Rev. 11:2 Gk).
I am in agreement with your statement: "those turning from the authority of Satan to do God's will have already received "forgiveness of sins" (Acts 26:18), those exercising faith in Jesus' ransom sacrifice had already had "forgiveness of sins" published to them through Jesus by us. (Acts 13:38; John 17:18, 20) In fact, @bennyk, everyone that puts faith in Jesus "gets forgiveness of sins through Jesus' name" at once (Acts 10:43)", but you have failed to see that the Society denies these precious promises for the "other sheep", whom they declare no part of the new covenant. ("Though he is not their legal Mediator, for they are not in the new covenant, he is their means of approaching Jehovah." [w89 8/15 pp. 30-31 Questions From Readers] ). You write: "Examine the scriptures and you will see that for anyone to preach a promise of forgiveness of sins to anyone is to be preaching a different gospel, for such a gospel is not scriptural." Exactly. I am sorry if the word "promise" in my opening post sentence you. I proclaim these promises as a present possession, having already been fulfilled. This is in contrast to what the Society teaches. Again, it appears that you are not especially conversant with the Society's teachings.
You also write: "the holy spirit has progressively given God's people a progressive understanding of His word today, so that as world events unfold, we have been blessed -- and only Jehovah's Witnesses -- to discern the fulfillment of prophecy that others cannot since God's organization is led by God's spirit, and not inspired by it..." "Progressively" is defined as: "continuing by successive steps; favoring, working for, or characterized by progress or improvement", but the Society's record does not show successive improvement when they continually prophesy things which do not come true, or replace one false teaching with a different false teaching. The Society's claim to be led by the holy spirit perhaps borders on blasphemy of said spirit.
You write: "Now you (and others here on this forum) may think it reasonable to judge Jehovah's Witnesses by things we may have understood to be true in the past, but we have since moved on to embrace God's progressive revelatory truth as we know it today according to our current understanding..." The Watch Tower Society invited us to "judge Jehovah's Witnesses by things [they] may have understood to be true in the past": viz. "Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a “prophet” of God. It is another thing to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record. What does it show? " (w72 4/1 p. 197 ‘They Shall Know that a Prophet Was Among Them’) Moreover, "your current understanding" is still incorrect.
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The False Prophet Nathan?
by brotherdan inmy mom is addicted to the wts.
i've recently brought up the many false prophecies and she calls almost every week to show me new things that the society has said about false prophets and how they are not one.. the latest was the account where king david wanted to build god a temple.
he told nathan the prophet about his idea and nathan basically said, well god is with you, you should do it.
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bennyk
debator writes in post 283:
"I reiterate we have the Bible example of a PROPHET Nathan making a mistaken prediction in his own words and not getting condemned for it only corrected by God this shows that God knows the difference."
My response: Very good; Jehovah himself corrected the prophet that very night. ( "And it came about on that night that the word of Jehovah came to Nathan..." [2 Samuel 7:4]) Therefore, this is entirely unlike the history of the Society's proclamations. The prophet Nathan did not preach numerous incorrect statements repeatedly, over and over for decades on end, demanding that others accede to his beliefs and condemning those who could not. But that is what the Society's record shows that they have done.
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The False Prophet Nathan?
by brotherdan inmy mom is addicted to the wts.
i've recently brought up the many false prophecies and she calls almost every week to show me new things that the society has said about false prophets and how they are not one.. the latest was the account where king david wanted to build god a temple.
he told nathan the prophet about his idea and nathan basically said, well god is with you, you should do it.
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bennyk
The Society is not content with merely claiming that Almighty God has "put his words in their mouths"-- They're even willing to put words in His mouth:
"Jehovah's prophetic word through Jesus Christ is: 'This generation [of 1914] will by no means pass away until all things occur.' (Luke 21:32) And Jehovah, who is the source of inspired an unfailing prophecy, will bring about the fulfillment."
--The Watchtower, May 15, 1984, pgs. 6-7 (Brackets in original). -
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The False Prophet Nathan?
by brotherdan inmy mom is addicted to the wts.
i've recently brought up the many false prophecies and she calls almost every week to show me new things that the society has said about false prophets and how they are not one.. the latest was the account where king david wanted to build god a temple.
he told nathan the prophet about his idea and nathan basically said, well god is with you, you should do it.
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bennyk
Okay, debator.
If I understand you correctly, you are claiming that although the Watch Tower Society has stated in millions of copies:
1) that "those of the Jeremiah class have been sent by Jehovah to speak in his name" (w79 9/1 pp.29-30),
2) that he has "put his words in their mouths" (w59 1/15 pp. 40-41 pars. 13-14),
3) that they are the ones whom God has "actually used as his prophet" (w59 1/15 pp. 40-41),
4) that "[a]ll the preaching and all the Bible educational work that they have done till now in 175 countries" has been done "by God's spirit" (w59 1/15 pp. 40-41), and
5) that He is "behind all of it" (w64 6/15 p. 365 par. 22)--
nevertheless, they are not to be viewed as false prophets despite the fact that nothing they have ever prophesied in His name has come true.Perhaps it's even all right with you if they blame him for their false prophecies and erroneous doctrines: "Stirring up increasing interest in them, Jehovah caused to be preached from 1918 onward the startling public message 'Millions Now Living Will Never Die,' and in 1923 he provided the interpretation of 'the parable of the sheep and the goats' " (Watchtower, Nov. 15, 1955, p. 698 § 36)
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The False Prophet Nathan?
by brotherdan inmy mom is addicted to the wts.
i've recently brought up the many false prophecies and she calls almost every week to show me new things that the society has said about false prophets and how they are not one.. the latest was the account where king david wanted to build god a temple.
he told nathan the prophet about his idea and nathan basically said, well god is with you, you should do it.
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bennyk
debator, you write in post 268: "
18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."
21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of Jehovah does not take place or come true, that is a message Jehovah has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.
The context for all these scriptures is when God speaks words to the prophets directly. This is the creteria for inspiration in the bible so they knew which books were inspired or what was prophetic utterances. Hense why the Bible is called "God's word".
My response: Please re-read the quote from the 1959 Watchtower:
13 The fact that decides the answer to the question is, not, Do all the clergy of Roman Catholicism and of Protestantism agree that Jehovah’s witnesses have been and are God’s prophet to the nations? but, Who discerned the divine will for Christians in this time of the world’s end and offered themselves to do it? Who have undertaken God’s foreordained work for this day of judgment of the nations? Who have answered the call to the work and have done it down till this year 1958? Whom has God actually used as his prophet?14 By the historical facts of the case Christendom is beaten back in defeat. Jehovah’s witnesses are deeply grateful today that the plain facts show that God has been pleased to use them. All the preaching and all the Bible educational work that they have done till now in 175 countries and islands of the sea they confess has been, not by help of a military army, nor by human power, but by God’s spirit, his invisible active force. (Zech. 4:6, AV) It has been because Jehovah thrust out his hand of power and touched their lips and put his words in their mouths.It has evidently been because he commissioned them to be over the nations and over the kingdoms. Happy are all those who have seen what the work of Jehovah God for now is and who have volunteered to do it. (w59 1/15 pp. 40-41 pars. 13-14)
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@ djeggnog
by bennyk in2:16), and sanctified (john 17:19; 1 cor.
7:25; 1 john 2:1), high priest (heb.
3:29; 4:7; titus 3:6,7; heb.
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bennyk
djeggnog, you have given no response to the quotes above indicating that the Watch Tower Society claims to be God's prophet.
I would characterize your digression regarding the Society's blood doctrine as a red herring.
You write: "It isn't even possible for the WTS to rewrite the history of Jehovah's Witnesses for the history of our organization...", and yet they have. The citations given in the opening post, as well as their official histories Jehovah's Witnesses in the Divine Purpose and the more recent Jehovah's Witnesses -- Proclaimers of God's Kingdom disprove your claim. Additionally, you write: "You said that the citations you gave me were examples of the Watch Tower Society 'rewriting' their history, i.e. 'lying,' but many of us were alive and do not to read the Watchtower to know what things we believed in the past, and we are fully aware of what ideas we may have abandoned in order to embrace those new things we now know to be in accord with the truth [sic]." That is precisely why I refer to what the Society has done as "lying." They have deliberately written what they must know to be untrue. The Governing Body must bear the blame for this. ( “The literature published by the Watch Tower Society is published in the name of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society. Regardless of who may write certain articles, they are checked carefully by members of the governing body before they are published; so they are properly viewed as coming from the Society.” [ Watchtower, 01. October 1959, p. 607])
Regarding what Luke wrote at Acts 7:14, I simply refer you to the Watch Tower Society's own New World Translation -- References. Please read the footnote at Genesis 46:27. Acts 7:34,35 does not misrepresent the account in the Hebrew Scriptures, and thus is by no means analogous to what the Society has done. (Perhaps you are unaware of the concept of "agency" [cf. Matt. 8:5-13 & Luke 7:1-10]). With you, I note a progressiveness in Jehovah's purpose.
Your statement "but your 'gospel' isn't scriptural at all" is silly, and based on your acceptance of the Society's erroneous interpretation of John chapter 10. However, the Scriptures do not limit the number of anointed Christians to 144 000; cf. Galatians 4:21-31. Furthermore, the book of Revelation portrays the unnumbered Great Crowd in Heaven (in the naos [Rev. 7:15; cf. Rev.11:19; 14:17; 15:5] ). There is no question that what I preach is a gospel "different" from that of the Witnesses, but I stand by my statement that what I preach is scriptural, whereas what the Watch Tower Society promulgates is under apostolic condemnation (Gal. 1:8,9). The Society has abandoned the "one hope" offered to Christians in Ephesians 4:4-6.
I am not unfamiliar with what the Society has taught regarding the New Covenant (I was raised as a Witness and remained such several decades); I simply find no reason to accept their interpretation as scripturally correct.
Nothing in the last two paragraphs you wrote convinces me of your sincerity.
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The False Prophet Nathan?
by brotherdan inmy mom is addicted to the wts.
i've recently brought up the many false prophecies and she calls almost every week to show me new things that the society has said about false prophets and how they are not one.. the latest was the account where king david wanted to build god a temple.
he told nathan the prophet about his idea and nathan basically said, well god is with you, you should do it.
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bennyk
debator writes: "Hi bennyk
This is already covered calling yourself a prophet isn't the issue. The creteria as set out by all of deut 18 is to claim to speak words directly from God to say you are inspired literally. It is not something people can put on you or can read into badly worded uininspired wt's. The person has to be claiming they can speak/communicate with/talk with/get visions from God himself. Witnesses have never claimed this but trying to build this from wt's trying to read it into them is just being dishonest.
Any witness can tell we know none of us have been inspired because that stopped with the apostles This is an across the board understanding all our people know."
my response:
Calling yourself a prophet is the issue. Let's consider those scriptures. "18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death. 21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of Jehovah does not take place or come true, that is a message Jehovah has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him." (Deuteronomy 18:18-22)
Your claim "The person has to be claiming they can speak/communicate with/talk with/get visions from God himself" is erroneous. Verses 18 & 19 declare that the promised Messiah will indeed be inspired. Verse 20 indicates that others who deceptively claim to 'speak in [His] name anything [He has] not commanded them to say' are to be put to death. This would be true of any prophet --even an inspired one -- who preaches as God's message something He did not command. Verse 22 indicates that the false teachings promulgated as "Truth" by the Watch Tower Society for decades in millions of copies are not a message from Jehovah, thus something not commanded by the "God of truth". The Society stands condemned.
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The False Prophet Nathan?
by brotherdan inmy mom is addicted to the wts.
i've recently brought up the many false prophecies and she calls almost every week to show me new things that the society has said about false prophets and how they are not one.. the latest was the account where king david wanted to build god a temple.
he told nathan the prophet about his idea and nathan basically said, well god is with you, you should do it.
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bennyk
debator, it would be nice if you would respond to the quotes in my two posts above. Thank you.
Maybe you could also give some thought to the implications of what you quoted in post 268:
" 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."
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Last Night's Intervention
by brotherdan ini'm afraid of starting a new post because i've stepped on a few feet here with my last post... but i still love you guys.. last night i went home to find my wife and her friend on the couch with the bible, ready to show me how i'm wrong and exercising "apostate thinking".
my wife said, "i am unable to fight you with the bible because you know more than me about it.
but k** knows more and will be able to show you how you are wrong.. so my wife went into the other room so as not to be stumbled by my discussion.
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bennyk
I've posted this elsewhere today, but maybe it'll prove useful here as well...
The Watch Tower Society kindly gives an example of "false prophesying":
"True, there have been those in times past who predicted an 'end to the world,' even announcing a specific date. Some have gathered group of people with them and fled to the hills or withdrawn into their houses waiting for the end. Yet, nothing happened. The 'end' did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying." (Awake! 08. October 1968, p. 23)
The Watch Tower Society gives a definition of "prophet":
"The New American Bible correctly states: ' Prophet means "one who speaks for another," especially for God. It does not necessarily mean that he predicts the future!"' (08. June 1986 Awake! p.9)
The Watch Tower Society declares itself a "prophet" or declares that it is "prophesying":
13 The fact that decides the answer to the question is, not, Do all the clergy of Roman Catholicism and of Protestantism agree that Jehovah’s witnesses have been and are God’s prophet to the nations? but, Who discerned the divine will for Christians in this time of the world’s end and offered themselves to do it? Who have undertaken God’s foreordained work for this day of judgment of the nations? Who have answered the call to the work and have done it down till this year 1958? Whom has God actually used as his prophet?14 By the historical facts of the case Christendom is beaten back in defeat. Jehovah’s witnesses are deeply grateful today that the plain facts show that God has been pleased to use them. All the preaching and all the Bible educational work that they have done till now in 175 countries and islands of the sea they confess has been, not by help of a military army, nor by human power, but by God’s spirit, his invisible active force. (Zech. 4:6, AV) It has been because Jehovah thrust out his hand of power and touched their lips and put his words in their mouths. It has evidently been because he commissioned them to be over the nations and over the kingdoms. Happy are all those who have seen what the work of Jehovah God for now is and who have volunteered to do it. (w59 1/15 pp. 40-41 pars. 13-14)
22 As Jehovah revealed his truths by means of the first-century Christian congregation so he does today by means of the present-day Christian congregation. Through this agency he is having carried out prophesying on an intensified and unparalleled scale. All this activity is not an accident. Jehovah is the one behind all of it. The abundance of spiritual food and the amazing details of Jehovah’s purposes that have been revealed to Jehovah’s anointed witnesses are clear evidence that they are the ones mentioned by Jesus when he foretold a “faithful and discreet slave” class that would be used to dispense God’s progressive revelations in these last days. Of this class Jesus said: “Truly I say to you, He will appoint him over all his belongings.”-Matt. 24:47. (w64 6/15 p. 365 par. 22)
36 None of us should want to be like these indecisive, unresponding ones! Better it is to know now, rather than too late, that there is an authentic prophetic class of Christians among us, and to accept and act upon the Bible message, “not as the word of men, but, just as it truthfully is, as the word of God.” (1 Thessalonians 2:13) Concerning the message faithfully delivered by the Ezekiel classJehovah positively states that it “must come true.” He asseverates that those who wait undecided until it does “come true” “will also have to know that a prophet himself had proved to be in the midst of them.” (Ezekiel 33:33) Such belated knowledge, however, will not mean salvation for them, for it will find their hearts and their ways to be unchanged.
37 What is to be gained by hesitating and doubting to the end that Jehovah can raise up and has raised up a genuine “prophet” within our generation? (“The Nations Shall Know That I Am Jehovah”-How? chap. 15 p. 292 pars. 36-37)However, Jehovah did not let the people of Christendom, as led by the clergy, go without being warned that the League was a counterfeit substitute for the real kingdom of God. He had a “prophet” to warn them. This “prophet” was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah’s Christian witnesses. They are still proclaiming a warning, and have been joined and assisted in their commissioned work by hundreds of thousands of persons who have listened to their message with belief.
Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a “prophet” of God. It is another thing to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record. What does it show? (w72 4/1 p. 197 ‘They Shall Know that a Prophet Was Among Them’)22 The holy spirit, which Jehovah prophesied that he would pour out in the last days, has not ceased to operate, for the remnant are still baptizing disciples of Christ in the name of that spirit. (Matthew 28:19, 20; Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21) The announced purpose behind God’s pouring out of his spirit upon all sorts of flesh was that the recipients thereof might prophesy. The facts substantiate that the remnant of Christ’s anointed disciples have been doing that prophesying to all the nations for a witness in favor of God’s kingdom. Logically, then, they must be the ones upon whom God’s spirit has actually been poured out. That spirit is behind their worldwide preaching.Why argue about it? (Holy Spirit-The Force Behind the Coming New Order! chap. 8 p. 148 par. 22)
The Watch Tower Society declares its followers "prophets", as well:
You will be interested to learn that God has on earth a people, all of whom are prophets, or witnesses for God. In fact, they are known throughout the world as Jehovah’s Witnesses. Out of love for God and his Word, they are carrying on a universal Bible educational work among old and young, rich and poor. They have hundreds of thousands of full-time voluntary workers, some of whom translate and print Bibles and Bible educational literature that is distributed inexpensively, or even free of charge. They are assisted by millions of part-time workers. Any of these will be happy to help you “discern the signs of the times” and embrace the wonderful hope contained in God’s Word, the Bible. (g86 6/8 p. 9 “Would That All Were Prophets!”)