Posts by hmike

35

Thinking about Matt 4:21......

by jula71 in

i was sitting and thinking of what to write in a da letter, as i've been inspired in a way by a letter i read today.

and one thought i am putting in, is that i have a clean, clear conscience because i believe a loving and understanding god would know that i choose this path due to honest and sincere feelings about the organization.

and i believe a loving god would not destroy a person based on that.

hmike

Also what I meant by the book being patent Pharisee was that a study of the real Pharisee teaching of the day reveals that the role they play as foils for the Jesus character in Matt is artificial. Most all the debates Jesus has with Pharisees would not have happened as the words of Jesus were drawn from Pharisee sources. This shows that the author did not know the Pharisees or a second hand adjusted the characters so as to villify the dominant Jewish sect after 70.

Pete, I think Jesus didn't have a problem with what the Pharisees taught, but rather with their heart attitudes and how they lived (Matt. 23:1-7). They were more interested in looking good and keeping man-made traditions and understandings of the Law than in extending compassion to the less privileged. I'm sure there were some Pharisees who would have supported Jesus, but the ones hostile to Jesus seem to have held the power and intimidated the others. This is much like what we would have today when church leaders live in luxury and private sin while isolating themselves from people in need.

17

Day for a year

by startingover in

last night i was reading from the old orange "paradise" book.

in my quest to understand how ideas got into my head, i decided to go back and look at the book that was used by my parents to study with me 40 some years ago.. i came upon the part dealing with the "original lie" from gen. 3:4,5. at this the serpent said to the woman: "you positively will not die.

for god knows that in the very day of your eating it your eyes are bound to be opened and you are bound to be like god, knowing good and bad".

hmike

Thanks for the replies. Sorry about the errors. I'm even more rusty with JDEP than I am with physics.

This is getting even further off the subject, but is there ancient literary support for the Gap hypothesis (i.e., Genesis 1 is about the re-creation of earth after a calamity)?

17

Day for a year

by startingover in

last night i was reading from the old orange "paradise" book.

in my quest to understand how ideas got into my head, i decided to go back and look at the book that was used by my parents to study with me 40 some years ago.. i came upon the part dealing with the "original lie" from gen. 3:4,5. at this the serpent said to the woman: "you positively will not die.

for god knows that in the very day of your eating it your eyes are bound to be opened and you are bound to be like god, knowing good and bad".

hmike

Leolaia, Narkissos, Pete, Paudin, any other scholars:

Assuming that the first chapter was composed by the Elohistic source, this person, or group, would have been well-educated and observant of the natural world. Understandably, they put the creation of plant life before animal life because animals needed vegetation for food, comfort, and shelter. They also would have known enough to realize that plants need light to survive based on the lack of plant life in perpetually dark areas, like caves, hence, the creation of light before vegetation. But they also must have realized that all light has to have a source, so why not have the sun created before plant life?

Not relevant to this question, but I'd like to point out that light is electromagnetic radiation in a range that our optical system can detect, from 4000 Angstroms to 7000 Angstroms. So, actually, what makes light special is that it can be perceived by humans. Now we have technology that allows us to "see" outside of this range. So what can be considered light would depend on the one perceiving. The emission of EM radiation occurs when atoms change energy levels, so the generation of radiation requires the existence of matter. Maybe Day 1 was the creation of matter. It's something the ancient people wouldn't have understood, but still, it could be something to ponder.

35

Thinking about Matt 4:21......

by jula71 in

i was sitting and thinking of what to write in a da letter, as i've been inspired in a way by a letter i read today.

and one thought i am putting in, is that i have a clean, clear conscience because i believe a loving and understanding god would know that i choose this path due to honest and sincere feelings about the organization.

and i believe a loving god would not destroy a person based on that.

hmike

When a major cigarette manufacturer, whose product has been shown to cause cancers and heart disease, contributes money to help public education, battered women, or the homeless, does that make everything alright?

Or when a crime boss sends flowers and arranges for an elaborate memorial and sends money to the widow of a man he had bumped off, does that make everything alright?

Or is it alright when a televangelist conducts healing and exorcisms in public while committing sexual abuse, misreporting income, cheating employees of pay, and having someone killed to keep them quiet?

Does doing things that help people override or excuse blatant, intentional harm? That's what it looks like we are talking about here, or actually, does doing acts of faith override or excuse a sinful lifestyle?

This passage in Matthew comes at the end of what is called the "Sermon on the Mount." In this section of Chapters 5-7, Jesus gives his disciples guidelines for living according to God's will. Just before this particular passage, in 7:15-20, Jesus warns his audience about false teacher--the wolves in sheep's clothing. Basically, Jesus tells them that a wolf can be dressed in a sheepskin, but its actions will give it away as a wolf, although he puts it in terms of a tree and its fruit. In the early church, false teachers did actually infiltrate the church, as we read in the books of 2 Peter and Jude. Peter writes about them:

"With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed--an accursed brood." (II Pet. 2:14, NIV)

Maybe they were the same group referred to in the book of Romans that believed the grace of God and liberty in Christ gave them the license to do whatever their fleshly nature wanted. In any case, all the NT writers clearly point out that there is accountability of how to live--not according to ceremonial laws, but according to a love of God and others. The people Jesus rejected at the judgment apparently had no regard for the desire of God, or the real benefit of others in spite of what they claimed.

By the way, in this passage of Matthew, these people CLAIMED to have done miraculous works in the name of Jesus, but did they really? We don't know. Neither do we know their motives behind the works, but remember, earlier in Chap.6, Jesus states that some people do acts of righteousness for show--to gain praise from others, and he says that praise is the only reward they will get. So, we don't know the full story behind these people Jesus has rejected, but Jesus didn't reject people who committed to him if they slipped up. After all, Peter denied him three times, and Jesus didn't write him off.

Paul addressed this kind of issue his own way in I Cor. 13:1-3 when he wrote that even if someone could perform great acts of faith, without love this person really had nothing. So, it isn't being able to perform the acts of faith that one should value.

32

AN EXCUSE TO HATE?

by Terry in

i ask this question rather seriously.

isn't religion actually an excuse to hate?

you quickly learn us vs them and who is who.

hmike

There simply is no evidence of this aid. None. Man is as helpless and error prone and awful AFTER conversion as before. Where is this promised HELPER? In the imagination and no where else.

Well, Terry. I can only say that this is not true for me, and for many people I know personally.

19

Early Christology question

by M.J. in

my knowledge about this is limited to some quotes of what various early church fathers taught and what they said about "heresies", in addition to the nt.

could some of the more knowledgeable folks on this board give their input as to what schools of thought were out there in the 1st century regarding christ's nature, the worship of christ, etc.?

leolaia in another post mentioned how there were three principle factions around the question of salvation.

hmike

Leolaia,

I checked the materials I have on hand, and I didn't find any suggestions of the "one like a son of man" being Michael. In "Christology in the Making" by James Dunn, he mentions possibilities as the Messiah, Adam, Wisdom, an angel, or the "saints of the Most High." He personally sides with the saints as the original intent, which I can understand, but it looks like quite a stretch to say this is Michael, even though he is called the Prince, and even if he can be equated with the "Angel of the LORD."

I wondered if this had anything to do with JW theology because it looks like something the WT would love to say--that a Biblical scholar calls the "son of Man" Michael, who, in the NT would be the Christ. They would use that and disregard everything else Mr. Day said, am I right?

32

AN EXCUSE TO HATE?

by Terry in

i ask this question rather seriously.

isn't religion actually an excuse to hate?

you quickly learn us vs them and who is who.

hmike

Terry,

For some people, to say they are "Catholic" or "Protestant" or "Christian" is like saying they are Americans, or New Yorkers, etc. It's the social, cultural, or ethnic group they identify with, usually based on where they are from or how they were raised. For example, some people who are Jewish by heritage, and proud of it, don't care about the Scriptures and don't worship the God of Moses. They MIGHT keep certain traditions as part of their identity, but their lives are governed by the same values as an atheist.

6

They saw a ghost

by hamsterbait in

as a youngster with the original green nwt i could never reconcile how the wts could print in a nt verse "they thought they had seen a ghost!

" when they were adamant such did not exist.. does anyone remember that verse (in acts, i think) i only have later editions where that and others are excised, and now s.o.

is trying to "smokescreen" me with the usual denial card.

hmike

HB,

I have that green NWT version in my personal library. It's got a 1953 foreward and it's about 4 inches thick, right?

Sorry to say, I didn't find the word "ghost"--It uses "apparition" and "spirit." Give me a specific verse and I can give you the quote.

32

AN EXCUSE TO HATE?

by Terry in

i ask this question rather seriously.

isn't religion actually an excuse to hate?

you quickly learn us vs them and who is who.

hmike

I think we hate others who are different than we are because we see it as questioning our choices about who we are--our self-identity. Others being different threatens to "invalidate" us. That's why we observe others for comparison--to see if we are "on the right track." If they reinforce who we are, or who we like to think we are, or who we want to be, we approve of them and tend to gravitate to them. If they don't, we dismiss them as being of lesser worth. So yes, it does come from fear--the fear that if our choices are invalidated, our being and worth is invalidated, and so we don't exist or deserve to exist.

There are different ways the mind can deal with this to survive, but the healthiest way is to be secure in one's identity and include in that an acknowledgement that there is always something new to learn--it's OK to grow and learn and change. That way, we aren't blinded to the value or worth of that which is outside of our choices.

Jesus addressed this in his teaching:

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Matt. 5:43-48, NIV)

Jesus instructed his followers to be gracious to those who were different than them--to those who didn't reinforce their choices.

The kingdom of God doesn't grow by being forced on people.

32

AN EXCUSE TO HATE?

by Terry in

i ask this question rather seriously.

isn't religion actually an excuse to hate?

you quickly learn us vs them and who is who.

hmike

Hi Terry,

Christianity really isn't supposed to be that way, but there'll always be people who misuse it. For instance, I don't consider the violent conflicts between Catholics and Protestant to have anything to do with Christianity--it's a political-cultural issue.

It's something like Nazism in Germany of the 30s-40s. There were always people who despised the Jews. Nazism just gave them a legally and socially acceptable way to express it. Some people use Christianity that way.

You appealed to history to support your thesis. Sure, there have been a lot of disgusting things done in the name of Christianity, but that doesn't prove anything about Christ. Once, in a discussion I had with JWs, they cited the commission of crimes in a part of the city where churches were located as proof that orthodox Christianity was false. Sorry, it doesn't prove the point. The fault lies with the people and the leadership.

Sometimes, separation is necessary, but never condemnation. As Christians, that's not our calling.