Carmel

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Posts by Carmel

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  30

  Defining Christianity

  by Carmel in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  it seems i constantly am confronted with those who are trying to make a "christian" out of me.

  in various threads on this forum the term is used as if everyone understands what it means and there is no fuzzy edges.. i wonder if all here assume that only those that follow "jesus" are to be considered "christian"?.

  consider that the title "christ" was not the name of the nazarene, only a title!

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  Carmel

  Waiting,

  No I'm no native Israeli.. Grew up in western Washington State, way out on the Olympic Peninsula. Migrated to Montana where I taught HighSchool Biology and Chemistry then moved back to the Seattle area for a couple of years. After that the family moved to Alaska where we were for a quarter of a century. We move to Israel three years ago. Had enough cold winters and wet summers. Sun shines 350 days a year here...

  I live within a stones throw of Elijah's cave in a flat over-looking the Med.

  cheers,

  carmel (the mountain)
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  67

  Purgatory, Limbo or the Twilight Comfort Zone

  by SolidSender in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  no offence meant but is this place some kind of waystation inhabited by beings neither in nor out of the lie?

  this is not a criticism just an observation.

  i know it can take time to make up your mind-solidsender

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  Carmel

  SS,

  Happy to engage. First I should explain that I do not discount the bible as we know it for it has been a huge influence and major contribution to humanity. That said, I think we often think that all civilization is a product of this one tome and that misconception reinforces the notion of exclusivity prevelant throughout christianity. The simple fact is that much of human civilization as we know it is the result of an amalgamation of the contributions of Judiasm, Christianity, Islam, Zoroastrianims, Buddhism, Hinduism and others.

  A simple example is the concept of the 0. This concept of a digit which stands for the absense of numerical value, was picked up by the Islamic scientists and connected to the Arabic numbers to make possible tremendous advances in mathematics, algebra, and other forms of higher calculations.

  Islam, itself, has contributed immensely to the world of science, and was directly responsible for the reawakening of Christian Europe that had sunk into the dark ages.

  I have dwelt only on one small issue but it is an example of an abstract idea that was brought to humanity by a civilization that traces its roots to ancient Hinduism. There are many other examples. As to moral and ethical issues, my investigation evidences to me that all the religions had a moral and ethical standard of pretty much the same. You can compare the Golden Rule for example. When all these religions have common spirtitual (human) values in common, but advocate different social teachings, one wonders if one of those holy books isn't a sort of hologram. You can identify the whole in each of the parts, but the part is still not the same as the whole.

  Have I made any sense yet?

  camel
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  30

  Defining Christianity

  by Carmel in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  it seems i constantly am confronted with those who are trying to make a "christian" out of me.

  in various threads on this forum the term is used as if everyone understands what it means and there is no fuzzy edges.. i wonder if all here assume that only those that follow "jesus" are to be considered "christian"?.

  consider that the title "christ" was not the name of the nazarene, only a title!

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  Carmel

  Not talking to myself, just wanted to add an additonal thought. Muslims consider Abraham, Moses and Jesus as well as their faithful followers as Muslim. Why, because the definition of the appellation is "submission to God", hence anyone who submitted their will to the will of god, was and is by definition a "Muslim". We overlook the idea that we can be a Jew/Muslim, follower of Jesus/Muslim, etc, etc.

  By definition many could call themselves "christian" and not confine themselves to following only the teachings of Jesus. What do we then call a follower of Jesus if we strip off the title "Christ"?

  carmel musing at sunrise
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  34

  Disassociated

  by Scorpion in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  it has been an experience to say the least.

  i accepted eagerly the teachings of the watchower bible and tract society over the last 7 years.

  i have been a dedicated pioneer for four of those years.

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  Carmel

  Now I understand! I gotta get a turtle!!

  carmel
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  30

  Defining Christianity

  by Carmel in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  it seems i constantly am confronted with those who are trying to make a "christian" out of me.

  in various threads on this forum the term is used as if everyone understands what it means and there is no fuzzy edges.. i wonder if all here assume that only those that follow "jesus" are to be considered "christian"?.

  consider that the title "christ" was not the name of the nazarene, only a title!

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  Carmel

  It seems I constantly am confronted with those who are trying to make a "Christian" out of me. In various threads on this forum the term is used as if everyone understands what it means and there is no fuzzy edges.

  I wonder if all here assume that only those that follow "Jesus" are to be considered "christian"?
  Consider that the title "Christ" was not the name of the Nazarene, only a title! My point is if one accepts Jesus as "a christ" as apposed to "Thee Christ", do you still consider them "Christian"?

  carmel
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  67

  Purgatory, Limbo or the Twilight Comfort Zone

  by SolidSender in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  no offence meant but is this place some kind of waystation inhabited by beings neither in nor out of the lie?

  this is not a criticism just an observation.

  i know it can take time to make up your mind-solidsender

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  Carmel

  Dear Solid,

  I understand your point. Two comments, Jesus is reported to have said "when two or more of you are gathered together, there also shall I be". This would suggest to me that gathering together and functioning in an organized manner is not itself the problem. In another situation He warned that nothing that enters our bodies corrupts us, only that which come out of our mouths. Again this would suggest that our utterances and/or actions can bring dishonor upon us whether as individuals or as part of an organized group.

  I think many people burned by control groups such as religious fanatacism blame the orgainization, the system, if you will, ignoring that many organizations, religious and otherwise, are not repressive and controling. It always comes back to individuals and collectives wanting to extend control over others. Organizations simply have a multiplicity of means that individuals many not have to develop control mechanisms.

  Second thought, I don't find just reading the bible is an unbiased approach. Considering how many deletions and permutations the bible has gone through, what we are left with is the collective prejudices of past religious zealots who have left us a legacy in writing that is unlikely to be either complete or accurate. I still gain inspiritation from it, but I don't feel it is the "whole story".

  cheers,

  carmel
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  6

  The voting issue?

  by Andyman in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  now last year the society came out with an article on voting that completly confused everyone.

  many jw's thought they could vote, but from what i hear the c.o.

  's have been telling them nothing has changed.

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  Carmel

  It seems to me that all matters are a "conscious" issue. Fornication, adultry, blood, wearing red shoes, ad infinitum. The catch is the term does not mean you can exercise your conscious without a response from the congregation. If your conscious missguides you, you are eliminated. The only difference now is that the Society has redefined the terms of how the congregation is "cleansed". Before the burden of action was by a formal DFing now it is defined as self DAing.

  Oh what a tangled web we weave....

  carmel
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  16

  Demon-possessed inanimate objects

  by Dubby in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  for years i heard stories that certain items in the home could be demon-possessed.

  i was told to be careful of items bought at garage sales because we didn't know their origin, or who or what they were used for.. did we own a ouija board before becoming a witness?

  could it be that items like these were creating misfortune?

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  Carmel

  Shortly after I left the association with the Witnesses I was driving home from my job and I spotted a familiar car along the road side. It was one of my older brothers who had a flat tire. I stopped and in the fix he was in with out a spare he was more than happy to break the shunning order and accept my spare to get him home. I owned a Mercury and he had a Ford so our wheels were a match.

  A few days later I noticed my spare tire leaning against the gard rail along the highway next to my brothers' house. I picked it up and went on about my business.

  Years later when attending another of my brother's funeral, I had a chance converstation about "evil spirits" and I learned through a family friend that was in attendance that my mother had instructed my brother to get the spare tire off the property as it would surely be inhabited by demons as it had been in the trunk of my car.

  The absurdity of this was totally lost on my family of older brothers that were seemingly highly intelligent. Has anyone ever thought through the idea of evil spirits wasting their time inhabiting smurfs, spare tires and aftershave lotions? Wouldn't they be much more effective in more insideous ways? Any thought given to the mental powers of the mind?

  Sorry, my soap box wearies of me.

  For those interested Eilene Pagel's book "The Origin of Satan" is a good read on how the idea of evil became personified during the early years of contention between the Christian groups . BTW, she is a well known Christian apologist and author.

  carmel
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  67

  Purgatory, Limbo or the Twilight Comfort Zone

  by SolidSender in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  no offence meant but is this place some kind of waystation inhabited by beings neither in nor out of the lie?

  this is not a criticism just an observation.

  i know it can take time to make up your mind-solidsender

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  Carmel

  SS,

  Your comments about "Christianity" as a "place to go to" are well taken. However, it may suprise you that the term means many things to many people, myself not the exception. Having never lost my belief that Jesus was an historical figure who was responsible for the eventual development of over a billion followers, twice that collectively over time, and for other reasons I define myself as "Christian". At the same time you would find that of all those that consider themselves "Christian" a miniscule percentage would consider me as "one of them".

  So considering "Christianity" is not a bad place to start as it can lead to lots of destinations. But then one has to contend with how broadly or narrowly one defines the title "Christ".

  cheers,

  carmel
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  29

  The Dalai Lama said it all!!!

  by Zep in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  what attracted me to the wt....i read too many of their magazines from 15-19 basically....it almost got me buying into their stuff, but then, just when i had just started getting into it all, i stopped and dropped it with the idea that i'd look into it later.. i remember reading the book of revelation at age 15 and wondering what it meant, all those dragons and horned beasts...then i got hold of some jw literature and there it was...it was all explained, nice and simple.all those prophecies about the end time seemed so good to a kid....i mean, i never really could understand their blood doctrine but you can over look that...after all, the truth is a powerful weapon, you can make people do anything when you have "the truth"...even murder!..

  another thing attracted me to it.....they seemed not to be preaching that bad people would burn in hell for all eternity, that there was no hell, that there was going to be a resurrection of the good and bad......yeah, seems pretty good, a caring religion eh!...everyone is going to be given ample chance to learn the truth and change.

  but things change, i started questioning as i got older...gave the bible study guy a hard time with all those questions, then we had an argument and i just cut it off....decided to look at it later.... but their stuff was always in the back of my mind.. well, later is now....6 months ago i wander into h20 rather casual like, couple that with the fact that i find out a friend has fallen in with jw's and i get sucked into studying up about it all.....its very interesting.its amazing how much you chance your world view from age 19 to 27......things are all different now, jw's look like nothing more than a high control totalitarian cult with some rather wacky world views and prophecies??????????

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  Carmel

  I really need to apologize for my comments on this thread. It seems religion has become a source of humor for me and I seem always to resort to making light of what others are taking with complete seriousness. I realize that for most all of you whether still Witnesses or not, it has been and for many, is still a major element of your lives. I have been away from the effects of it all for long enough that I tend to see humor more than most.

  I will try to refrain from my attempts at humorous comments in the future.

  carmel