Posts by isaacaustin

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

isaacaustin

thanks for the comment StAnn,

I enjoy reading your posts too. :)
Yes amazing what freedom in Christ does to a person. ANyway can have it. It takes the bravery to confront one's doubts and questions.

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

isaacaustin

1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

So the Son made all things.

3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being,

lovelylil commented well on this...

sustaining all things by his powerful word.

Who sustains the universe?

Psalm 148 "1 Praise Jah, you people! Praise Jehovah from the heavens, Praise him in the heights 2 Praise him, all you his angels. Praise him, all you his army. 3 Praise him, you sun and moon. Praise him, all you stars of light. 4 Praise him, you heavens of the heavens, And you waters that are above the heavens. 5 Let them praise the name of Jehovah; For he himself commanded, and they were created. 6 And he keeps them standing forever, to time indefinite. A regulation he has given, and it will not pass away."

Right out of the NWT. And how does Jehovah sustain all things? A regulation. How does the Son sustain all things? By his powerful word, or as the NWT says "the word of his power". Jehovah in Psalms here is identified as the person of Jesus.

After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

How did the Jews react to Jesus claim that he can forgive sins? The accounts are in mrk 2 and Luke 5- the replies were that he was speaking blasphemies, no one can forgive sins except one- God. Jesus did not correct this statement but simply said that they needed to know he had authority to forgive sins. So he agreed with their statement as far as only God being able to forgive sins.

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

isaacaustin

In John ch 5 Jesus tells the Jewish authorities that he can do nothing of his own initiative. The WT likes to hit on this verse (and only this verse) in this text. However reading on we see Jesus does not stop there...he tells them that he only does what he beholds the Father doing AND that the Father shows him ALL the things thta he himself does. So Jesus says that he does everything that the Father does exactly as the Father does them. He names things such as judging, making alove, forgiving sins...etc...thing which the OT attributes only to God...things which the Jews consider blasphemy for him to utter.

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

isaacaustin

Exactly...son indicates equal nature. To use JW reasoning...a dog can not give birth to a cat...or a human to another species. Can a human pro-create deity?

So son reflects an identity.

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

isaacaustin

I certainly have no problem with your view lovedubs. I can respect differing viepoints. obviously the issue becomes when one uses this viewpoint to judge themeselves as above others of differing views....as the WT does. And while I can see both sides of the argument, the WT uses dishonesty in presenting its view. I am not saying that that is how your viewpoint is formed. If one has come to this conclusion on their own, thru their own thinking and analysis that presents no problem and makes for thought-provoking discussion.

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

isaacaustin

what cha want to talk about next.....

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

isaacaustin

Ok Reniaa I think I have touched on every so-called proof text you have thrown in here....

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

isaacaustin

Never does jesus consider himself equal to God and here is a favourite Jw scripture which is still valid because it emphasises that jesus can't be god because he does not have the knowledge that god has.

36 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, [f] but only the Father.

Wrong again Reniaa. Since the Father is head Jesus at that moment did not know things that were for the Father to decide. We know from John chapter 14 that the Father, being greater in position and the source of all authority upon Jesus glorification gave the Son everything...who in turn sent us the Comforter.

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

isaacaustin

You said: The man coming to jesus is just a rich man who comes along not an appostle and jesus rebukes him for calling him Good, then saying no one is Good except God ALONE emphasies on the alone singular, while your interpretaion has merit, given the setting that he is talking to a random jew on a different subject this was just a pick up rebuke at the start, and then the alone on God I would be dubious of how you interpretate it to mean, the situation is such that the man will have the obvious meaning which is jesus emphasising only God is Good not jesus.

Where did Jesus rebuke him Reniaa? That word is no where is this text. He simply asked a question as he always asked questions to put people into a position of having to think and commit. He emphasized God alone is good but in now way excluded himself from that class. He said nothing more than his question. If he made a comment stating that he himself is not good or that he himself is just a man then you would have a point. You are simply reading into Jesus words what you already believe.

You said: Hbr 1:4
Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they
you are making a point between better and greater but you miss that the scripture talks on jesus being 'MADE' if he is of equal Godhead he was never made.
A bit of a red herring here- the discussion was on the distinction between greater and better. But I will answer it anyway...Made- from the point of his emptying himself and becoming a man to his re-glorification.

You said: you talk on my two witness text saying they are equal but isn't that contradictory after just looking at a scripture were jesus says "the father is greater than I"

No, it is not contradictory. I just showed you from Heb discussed above that 'greater' refers to position whereas 'better' refers to nature. George Bush is greater than you and I due to his position. he certainly is not better- as we are of the same nature.

You said: The point in the scripture john 10: 31-37 is jesus emphasised he was God's son not letting them calling him God stand unchallenged.
This in no way emphasized he was not letting them call him God. In fact, when he called himself God's son they knew exactly what he meant- that he was God in nature.
you said: This is talking of the son of man being led into the presence of the ancient of days, So here is jesus going to meet God and God gives him authority, this brings up many points firstly jesus is seen as a fully separate entity and in subjection to god as well as God being the one to give him power and glory etc

Reniaa...first of all as you know we all know that Jesus is a separate entity from the Father. So your using a verse to try to show them as separate entities and call the trinity false in one shot is simply strawman logic. As far as the Son receiving power from the father, being eternally submissive to the father...think of Adam and Eve.
Adam and Eve had the same nature but because one was the decision-maker and the other was to be in perfect subjection (1 Corinthians 11:3 But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.), they were only one flesh (Genesis 2:24). If Eve were to choose her own way (which she later did) that would make two decision-makers and thus they would no longer be acting as one entity. To act as one entity there can only be one decision-maker, the other must be the submissive agent.
Imagine that Adam and Eve had remained sinless and had a child, called Cain. Suppose we asked Cain who his boss is. Cain would reason that since Eve was in perfect submission and one flesh with Adam, both his parents were his boss. He would say that his boss is Adam and Eve.' If we asked him how many bosses he has he would reason that since Adam and Eve were ONE flesh, the authority was `one', so he would say that he has one boss. Adam and Eve were two persons but that does not mean does that not mean there were two bosses, a `big' boss and a `little' boss any more than two parents are considered 'big boss' and 'little boss. Adam and Eve were to be in perfect unity with perfect communication, acting as one entity with one decision-maker, one will. Therewas only one boss, Adam and Eve.
Now let's ask Eve if she has a boss. She would reason that since she was in perfect submission, and Adam was her head, yes she had a boss, Adam. Then how many human bosses are there in the Garden of Eden, one or two? One. Eve is a boss and she has a boss but that does that not mean that one plus one is two bosses. If Eve were not ONE flesh with Adam, if she acted on her own initiative, then there would be two bosses. But Eve was not to act on her own initiative and she was ONE flesh with her head Adam. Sorry Reniaa but one boss plus one completely submissive boss equals still equals one boss. Just because Eve was to be submissive, that does not mean she was inferior. She was not to be a separate independent human. She had the same nature as her head, they were both humanity, but they each had a different role. The same is true for the Father and the Son. They are both Deity, they have the same essential attributes of immortality, having the authority to judge and give life, they are both credited with making the universe, their glory is one. But the Father and Son are two persons and when Jehovah, the One True God, speaks, he speaks for us...They each have a different role, One is the source of all authority and decisions, the other is the perfect agent or servant that carries out the one will better than anyone could.

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

isaacaustin

you then use hebrews scripture
Hbr 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they
you are making a point between better and greater but you miss that the scripture talks on jesus being 'MADE' if he is of equal Godhead he was never made.
Just noticed what you said here.
First off, I suggest you look to the original language and determine what is really meant by the term that has been translated as 'made'.
Secondly, Jesus claims to be the Son of God. Can you deny that your parents 'made' you? However, as a child of theirs, they also 'begot' you. This, I think, is the sense of the english word 'made' as it is used in this instance. Get a concordance and determine for youself.
Thirdly, further on in that same portion, the author uses the word 'inheritance'. The angles don't inherit anything; they are only creations and can become nothing more. Christ was begotten (John 3:16) of God, and as such is THE SON OF GOD. Therefore, He has INHERITED a more excellent name. We can also inherit from God even though we are only creations. However, unlike the angels, we have the possiblity of believing in Christ and become like Him. For when we believe on Him, we are adopted into the FAMILY OF GOD. This would NOT be possible if Christ was not God. For why would belief on Christ enable the Spirit of God to dwell within in each believer? Belief in God allows Him to dwell within each of His children. However, we are told to believe on Christ since He is the physical representation of God Himself, and is the proof given to us of God's existence and great love toward us.
slappy

hi slappy it'doesn't matter if the word is MADE, BEGOTTEN, CREATED it still puts God in the driving seat and First and jesus second after God and so not equal to God and therefore not God. (note there is no mention of holy spirit here)

Made so much better- from the point of his having emptied himself to the point of his re-glorification. Not rocket science there Reniaa