Metatron: I think that last sentence was referring to the recent decision in favor of Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia. But I'm only guessing.
Barb
AndersonsInfo
JoinedPosts by AndersonsInfo
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European Court of Human Rights to hear JWs tax case against France
by AndersonsInfo inhttp://www.expatica.com/fr/news/french-news/europe-court-to-hear-jehovah-witness-tax-case-against-france_99836.html.
europe court to hear jehovah witness tax case against france 9-29-10. the european court of human rights said wednesday it had agreed to consider a case brought by the jehovah witness christian sect against the french government over taxation of donations.. in its request, the group alleged an infringement of the right to religious freedom saying the french government had tried to curtail its activities by demanding in may 1998 taxes on donations from its followers.. the sect said the move was an attempt to end the autonomy of religious communities.. french authorities say the donations were not raised from a religious source and so were subject to the same rules as other donations.. the 1998 demand was for 45 million euros (61 million dollars) at the time, but this amount had since reached 57.5 million euros, according to france.. it involves donations from 250,000 people over four years, an average amount of four euros per person a month between 1993 and 1996.. the court, based in the french city of strasbourg, however rejected a case of religious discrimination against the jehovah's witnesses.. .
2010 afp.
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European Court of Human Rights to hear JWs tax case against France
by AndersonsInfo inhttp://www.expatica.com/fr/news/french-news/europe-court-to-hear-jehovah-witness-tax-case-against-france_99836.html.
europe court to hear jehovah witness tax case against france 9-29-10. the european court of human rights said wednesday it had agreed to consider a case brought by the jehovah witness christian sect against the french government over taxation of donations.. in its request, the group alleged an infringement of the right to religious freedom saying the french government had tried to curtail its activities by demanding in may 1998 taxes on donations from its followers.. the sect said the move was an attempt to end the autonomy of religious communities.. french authorities say the donations were not raised from a religious source and so were subject to the same rules as other donations.. the 1998 demand was for 45 million euros (61 million dollars) at the time, but this amount had since reached 57.5 million euros, according to france.. it involves donations from 250,000 people over four years, an average amount of four euros per person a month between 1993 and 1996.. the court, based in the french city of strasbourg, however rejected a case of religious discrimination against the jehovah's witnesses.. .
2010 afp.
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AndersonsInfo
Europe court to hear Jehovah Witness tax case against France 9-29-10
The European Court of Human Rights said Wednesday it had agreed to consider a case brought by the Jehovah Witness Christian sect against the French government over taxation of donations.
In its request, the group alleged an infringement of the right to religious freedom saying the French government had tried to curtail its activities by demanding in May 1998 taxes on donations from its followers.
The sect said the move was an attempt to end the autonomy of religious communities.
French authorities say the donations were not raised from a religious source and so were subject to the same rules as other donations.
The 1998 demand was for 45 million euros (61 million dollars) at the time, but this amount had since reached 57.5 million euros, according to France.
It involves donations from 250,000 people over four years, an average amount of four euros per person a month between 1993 and 1996.
The court, based in the French city of Strasbourg, however rejected a case of religious discrimination against the Jehovah's Witnesses.
© 2010 AFP
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My first video - Jehovah's Witnessess and Blood Guilt
by sabastious infinally got enough nerve to post a video.
let me know what you think :).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=na-hpyvbla8.
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AndersonsInfo
Well done, Sab. Your logical and reasonable analysis of JWs "obsession" with what constitutes "blood guilt" was certainly persuasive. We enjoyed your relaxed presentation and how comfortable you were with the subject. Joe and I look forward to your next video, so keep them coming.
Barbara
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JW woman dies in car accident out in the "work"--where was the holy spirit?
by blondie inhttp://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/traffic/mazda-crushed-by-truck-friday-carried-four-women-938492.html.
mazda crushed by truck friday carried four women headed out to share word as jehovah's witnesses; one diedbysonja isgerpalm beach post staff writer.
updated: 6:57 p.m. sunday, sept. 26, 2010. posted: 1:33 p.m. sunday, sept. 26, 2010. .
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AndersonsInfo
I am against the "insensitive" words that have been used on this thread about those who were involved in this accident. I posted my own experience on this thread because it hurt to hear the way some on this board seemed to care so little about the lady who died. I could have been killed back in 1972 and then never would have gone to Bethel; never have found out about and revealed the awful child abuse problem in this organization. If that woman who died yesterday in W. Palm Beach as she was going out in field service had lived, she might have been one of us in the future who left the Witnesses and shared her experiences that might have helped others. I'm sad that there are posters who hate the Watch Tower so much that they hate the victims of the Watch Tower too, something all of us once were.
Barbara
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JW woman dies in car accident out in the "work"--where was the holy spirit?
by blondie inhttp://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/traffic/mazda-crushed-by-truck-friday-carried-four-women-938492.html.
mazda crushed by truck friday carried four women headed out to share word as jehovah's witnesses; one diedbysonja isgerpalm beach post staff writer.
updated: 6:57 p.m. sunday, sept. 26, 2010. posted: 1:33 p.m. sunday, sept. 26, 2010. .
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AndersonsInfo
My heart goes out to the accident victims and to the family of Mary Niemoeller. What happened to them in field service brings back many unsettling memories.
In the 1960's, Joe and I were pioneering in this same area of West Palm Beach and lived just about a quarter of a mile west of where Mary Niemoeller lived on a street off of a major east-west highway, Southern Blvd. I had many Bible Studies in "Greenacres" where Mary had her home. At that time of the morning when the accident occurred, I wonder if they were going out to witness in the rural western areas of Palm Beach County where we also spent many hours in field service.
When we were out in field service one Saturday morning back in 1972, during the circuit overseer’s visit to the Canal Street Congregation where we attended, I was sitting in the back seat of a Volkswagen Carmen Gia. We were working in a territory with only a few houses on each street so we had to get back in the car when we finished calling at every house and ride over to the next street. At one point we were stopped on a major two-lane north-south highway in W. Palm Beach waiting to turn left onto another street after on-coming traffic passed. When the road was clear, the driver turned left (and I clearly remember the turn signal clicking as they did in that type of car), and we were broad-sided by a Florida State Highway Trooper who decided to pass us traveling at 55 mph. He did not have his siren or lights flashing. (He was going home to lunch.) By examining the skid marks the experts determined we were doing 12 mph.
The little well-built car we were in, I was told, rolled a few times and slid, and then stopped in a wet marshy field right-side up, the top and left side quite damaged. I saw the trooper, who was wearing his big trooper's hat, plainly when his car hit us, but remember nothing else until I awoke later-how many minutes later, I don't know. I had been sitting with my legs across the back seat because my "large" sister-in-law was in the front passenger-side seat and she needed more room for her legs so she had pushed her seat back making it a tight squeeze for me to have my feet on the floor. During the collision, the front passenger seat broke loose so if my legs had been there, they would have been crushed. In fact my shoes, which I had taken off and left on the floor, were both crushed.
After I came to my senses, I realized I didn't have any major injuries except whip-lash to my neck and found that a sweater I had worn over my shoulders had one sleeve torn off. Then I saw that the entire back window of the car had popped out. I crawled out the opening where the back window had been onto the wet ground and searched for my eyeglasses that flew out the window when it popped out. Finding them, I stood up and saw the trooper's car in the distance on fire with him trying to extinguish the flames. I then checked to see how the other two traumatized passengers were. They had minor injuries and couldn't get out of the car due to a crushed door on one side and a stuck door on the other and in a state of panic worried about fire.
I watched in the distance as traffic was pulling over and many men were helping the trooper with the fire. Soon the trooper, who was apparently in a state of shock, came “striding” (Florida State Troopers in those years wore memorable boots that came up to their knees or higher) up to the car and asked, of all things, if we had had our seat belts on. I did not have my seat belt on because of sitting sideways. But the other passengers did. The trooper was very annoyed at all of us and scolded the driver for her bad driving after he found out we were not badly injured. Then he walked away.
Someone called an ambulance and we were all taken to a local hospital for an examination. The doctor at the hospital that morning in the ER was a JW, Dr. Jack Carleton, who since the mid-1970's has been a doctor at Watchtower Farms in Wallkill, NY. It was his hardy little car that I was riding in that morning. The driver was a guest visiting his family from Virginia.
We sued the State of Florida for damages, which in those years was a no-no. It ended up that a year of physical therapy and other medical costs were paid for because the trooper was clearly at fault. My sister-in-law settled for $1,000 for injury to her right arm. I didn't ask for any damages except physical therapy for my neck. Incidentally, I still have problems with the left side of my neck all these many years later.
All of us thanked "Jehovah" we weren't killed and life went on. I bet that Circuit Overseer never forgot his visit at that time to our congregation. I know my family and I never have.
My sympathy is with all those who were involved in yesterday’s accident in WPB and to their families. This is a most horrible time for them all whether the accident happened on their way out in field service or if they were going any other place, it doesn’t matter. The reality is that a life was lost and it could have been mine or yours or someone you loved who was out in field service.
Barbara
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Old Light - New Light: Changes in WT Doctrine
by NewLight2 inwt 12/1/1894 p. 384.
wt 5/1/57 p.274.
wt 11/15/28 p.344.
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AndersonsInfo
No, peacedog, you did not misspeak. I felt the need to post because there is so much more to WT's past and present "separating" work interpretations than just flip flops and I was adding to your overview. Absolutely WT tells untruths about God and even makes liars out of the messengers. As I mentioned in my essay found at Freeminds, it was a terrible blow to me to find out I had been lying to people when I taught them WT's 1923 interpretation of the parable. I felt as though I had misrepresented the God that I thought I had served for over forty years.
In reality, every time WT makes changes to their doctrines and "sweet talks" the flock into believing it is in their best interests to accept more "new light," it makes God out to be a liar who apparently is having fun playing a sick sort of game with his believers’ hearts and minds. And to outsiders, believers appear to be fools to accept the expositions of “...the church that claims to represent the Lord on earth" but can never get their claims right!
We who thought we knew it all and looked down at others for not understanding the Bible like we did were living a fantasy, a lie. And JW's leaders are two-faced liars. Out of one side of their mouth, they smoothly and convincingly lie to their members about God's purposes. Out of the other side, they say every religion except them lies about God. And nobody did that better than Rutherford did in his Oct. 15, 1923 article, THE PARABLE OF THE SHEEP AND THE GOATS.
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Old Light - New Light: Changes in WT Doctrine
by NewLight2 inwt 12/1/1894 p. 384.
wt 5/1/57 p.274.
wt 11/15/28 p.344.
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AndersonsInfo
This "Old Light - New Light: Changes in WT Doctrine" thread deserves to be brought back because it is so important for new ones on this board to see for themselves, point by point, the changes in WT doctrine over the years.
Recently, I finished an article about the WT Society's interpretational changes of the separation of the sheep and the goats parable and it is found on Freeminds.org.
It might appear from a quick perusal of late WT literature that "peacedog" has the changes in interpretation correct, but looking at the old material, and for the sake of accuracy, the reality is that the changes were not quite as simple as "peacedog" presented. Yes, generally he's correct, but the changes were far more important than just when the Society said the separating event takes place.
Prior to 1923: The separating of the sheep and the goats is a future event taking place after the tribulation.
1923-1995: The separating of the sheep and the goats began in 1914 and is currently taking place.
1995-current: The separating of the sheep and the goats is a future event taking place after the tribulation.The 1923 interpretation offered by the WT regarding the parable of the sheep and goats was one of the most important theological change in WT's history because it alone was the impetus for the "world-wide preaching work of JWs.
Prior to 1923: Russell taught that the "separating" would occur during the Millenium and yes, peacedog is correct, this is after the tribulation. Note this: Russell taught that Jesus did the separating of the Gentiles during his 1,000 year rule.
1923-1995: Rutherford taught the "separating" began in 1918, no matter if later Watchtower articles generalized and used the year 1914 as the starting date. Also, it would only be Christendom that would be separated. And, most importantly, Christians separated themselves by their reaction to the message they heard only from the Bible Students/JWs, who early on were all annointed so constituted "Christ's brothers." This work was the "judgment" that would continue until just prior to the start of the Millennial age. Jesus, through the angels, was pushing the worker messengers, who mainly were not annointed but supportive of "Christ's brothers" until just before the start of the great tribulation when goat-like Christians were determined by Jesus unworthy of receiving the trial for life that went on during the Millennium and which sheep-like Christians received.
October 1995: Jesus executes judgment when the entire wicked system has ended, right after the tribulation starts. And Jesus’ judgment includes people of all nations, (or as Russell called them the "Gentiles,"), just like the parable states, not merely Christendom. And, Jesus does the separating. This is what the Watchtower of Oct. 15, 1995 stated: "Jesus is the one who is appointed to render judgment. It is not for us to determine who are sheep and who are goats ."
What does the latest change mean: As I pointed out in my essay, Awake! editor, Harry Peloyan, told me, “Now Jehovah’s Witnesses believe just like Christendomhas for 2,000 years!” That in a nutshell is the most important part of the change of interpretation in 1995!
The following material was taken from my Freeminds article:
1. The earliest belief of Russell and associates—1879 onward
Zion’s Watch Tower , September 1881, p. 269, par. 5, 6:
A thousand years of such ruling and teaching! ... This thousand years is the time during which all the nations are gathered before the judgment seat of Christ. It is their judgment day—one thousand years. [6] During all that time, God’s truth, as a two-edged sword, will be quietly, … doing a separating work, dividing the sheep from the goats. Matt. XXV, 31-46. This article originally appeared in the September 1879 Zion’s Watch Tower, p. 34, and was expanded in Sept.1881.
Zion’s Watch Tower, March 15, 1905, p. 3528, par. 6:
The Lord refers to this other flock of sheep, and explicitly tells us about the gathering of those sheep to his favor under him as the great Shepherd. He definitely fixes the time and shows that the parable of the sheep and goats belongs not to the present age but to the Millennial age…
The Watch Tower , February 15, 1914, p. 5406, par. 7:
One parable at least tells about the future work of the kingdom, after the Church is completed and sits with Christ in his throne. This is the parable of the Sheep and the Goats… [par. 10] This dividing of the world, the Gentiles , will progress for a thousand years, and eventually will make a most complete separation…
2. 1923—Change In the October 15, 1923 issue of The Watch Tower, p. 308, par. 18, 21, the second president of the Watch Tower Society, Joseph F. Rutherford wrote:
(18) Our Lord’s throne, or judgment-seat, mentioned in the parable does not seem to be that of the Millennial throne which will deal with the living and the dead during his reign, but seem clearly to be the throne of court established to judge the things existing at the time of or during his second presence and before the beginning of restoration. (21) …that this judgment of the unrighteous things spoken of by St. Jude takes place prior to the beginning of the Millennial age judgment, which shall be in righteousness. Acts 17:31
Repetition for emphasis: Rutherford applied the judgment of everlasting destruction for goat-like people before the Millennium began and during Christ’s invisible presence, which was thought to have begun in 1874.
According to that same Watch Tower,the messageand how people react to that message about the day of God’s vengeance preached by God’s earthly representatives separates goat-like people from sheep-like people only in Christendom and not dividing or separating the gentile world as Russell taught.
But it is the duty of the church, as representing the Lord on earth, to proclaim the day of his vengeance against Satan’s unrighteous system and to call upon the people to separate themselves from the unclean thing and come apart and recognize and acknowledge allegiance to the King of kings and Lord of lords (p. 314, par. 61).
His [Jesus] words concerning the separating of one from another in this parable do not seem to relate to a general separation of the nations, but rather to the separation of the two general classes composing the nations of Christendom, one symbolized by goats and the other by sheep. (p. 310, par. 30).
3. The latest belief—1995
“The rendering of judgment on the sheep and goats is future. It will take place after ‘the tribulation’ mentioned at Matthew 24:29, 30 breaks out and the Son of man ‘arrives in his glory.’ Then, with the entire wicked system at its end, Jesus will hold court and render and execute judgment.” Watchtower , October 15, 1995, p. 23, par. 26.
In other words, Jesus executes judgment when the entire wicked system has ended, right after the tribulation starts. And Jesus’ judgment includes people of all nations, just like the parable states, not merely the Gentiles or only Christendom.
Nowhere in the 1995 articles does it enlighten readers that for some forty-four years previous to 1923 the Watch Tower Society taught that the parable of the sheep and the goats applied during the Millennium, but simply explains on page 25, par. 9:
The parable does not apply during the Millennium, for the anointed will not then be humans suffering hunger, thirst sickness, or imprisonment.
For a fact, that October 15, 1995 Watchtower, on p. 19, par. 24, and p. 22, par. 22 misleads the Witnesses by stating that it was long understood that the parable found application starting in 1914 when that was the second application the Society endorsed, the first being Russell’s teaching that application was during the Millennium. This should have been clarified. In addition, in the October 15, 1923 Watchtower, the year 1914 is never mentioned; rather, the Watch Tower explains that Christ came in 1918 for the purpose of judging, first the spirit-begotten saints, later, Christendom.
To recap, the new development in the Society’s understanding is that the other sheep are those who are preaching the good news with the anointed and do good towards them. Goat-like ones are those whose past actions were not supportive of the anointed and rejected the Kingdom message. And, most importantly, as explained in the Oct. 15, 1995 Watchtower, p. 26, par. 15,
Of course, in the final analysis, Jesus is the one who is appointed to render judgment. It is not for us to determine who are sheep and who are goats.
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Separating the Sheep from the Goats by Barbara Anderson
by Dogpatch inseparating the sheep from the goatsby barbara anderson.
on freeminds.org at: http://www.freeminds.org/blogs/musings-of-a-watchtower-insider/separating-the-sheep-from-the-goats.html.
(according to harry peloyan, c. t. russell, j. f. rutherford, and watchtower 1995).
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AndersonsInfo
Farkel, what a funny post. Once more, only you can say so succinctly what took me thousands of words to explain.
Barb
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1975 For Deniers
by Farkel in1975 for deniers.
most of today's jws were not members in 1975 or in the 9 years prior to 1975, so they were not eyewitnesses to what really went on during that period.
i was a pioneer in that period, and i was an eyewitness to what went on.. those jws who are still active today and who were around in that period will typically say it was the "brothers" who "ran ahead of jehovah" and "read more into" the 1975 prediction than what was actually stated.
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1975 For Deniers
by Farkel in1975 for deniers.
most of today's jws were not members in 1975 or in the 9 years prior to 1975, so they were not eyewitnesses to what really went on during that period.
i was a pioneer in that period, and i was an eyewitness to what went on.. those jws who are still active today and who were around in that period will typically say it was the "brothers" who "ran ahead of jehovah" and "read more into" the 1975 prediction than what was actually stated.
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AndersonsInfo
After the Governing Body elected Fred Franz to be the fourth president of the Watch Tower’s Pennsylvania Corporation following the death of Nathan H. Knorr in 1977, Harry Peloyan told us he went to Lloyd Barry’s office to make it known exactly how he felt about the appointment. His disgust knew no bounds, he said, because it was Fred Franz who developed the argument that the end of 6,000 years of man's existence would end in 1975 and then soon the thousand year rule of Christ would begin. Harry laid the following paragraph squarely in Franz’s lap:
The observation that 1975 may well mark the beginning of mankind's great Jubilee has intrigued many. According to the Bible timetable, man's history on earth has been nearly 6,000 years. Adam was created in 4026 B.C.E., which means that six thousand years of human history end about the fall of 1975 C.E. We are in the great 7,000-year rest day of God, starting at the time he rested after the creation of Adam and Eve. There are, therefore, a thousand years left to run. Without Satan and his demons to disturb mankind it will indeed be a restful time. It will be like a sabbath.
Watchtower 7/15/67 pg.446-7Peloyan blamed Franz for the exodus of 500,000 (the Society's figure) disenchanted Witnesses after 1975 who, he said, would die at Armageddon. I remember hearing the forcefulness in Harry’s voice when he repeated what he told Lloyd, “And you reward this man for such travesty by making him president.”
Barbara