Fatfreek

Joined

• started 195 topics
• posted 1,276 times   see topics posted on
• send a message

Posts by Fatfreek

• 
  23

  The hidden Watchtower writers.

  by edmond dantes in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the watchtower smoke and mirrors dept.

  are very fond of saying that appostates who post on the internet are like satan in eden hiding their identity just like the devil who used the serpent.. this begs the question why do the awake and watchtower writers need to hide behind the printing presses of the evil tower, what are they ashamed of or more to the point what is the govening body frightened of ?.

  maybe the book club and rip off society are guilty of identity theft in not declaring the names of their writers..

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Fatfreek

  Yup, we shore don't want adoration going to our writers. Why, it'll go to their heads.

  On the other hand, just in case folks insist on names and faces -- well, we'll just give them (drum roll, please) ours: The Governing Body

  

  Len Miller
• 
  3

  "On Deconstruction" - Leaving Jehovah's Witnesses

  by easyreader1970 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  video link: http://youtube.com/watch?v=gezsqscgwzm.

  there are two parts to the video so check out the second part as well.. i am pretty much stuck in this organization, at least for the forseeable future because i don't want to destroy my family.

  i hate that i ever got into this situation but here i am.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Fatfreek

  Hi EasyReader,

  I watched both of your videos and that in itself is a compliment. I don't normally watch videos because of my slow connection. I have to hit the pause button until the buffer fills enough that everything stays smooth.

  You come across as sincere since you weren't tied to a rigid script, you are eloquent, and you are obviously well-read. Well, that makes sense since you advocate reading a lot. That's good.

  You are wise beyond your years to be cautious about making a formal break with the Society. Family is more important than some folks think. Making a formal break is actually playing by their rules since they know you can do far more damage from the inside.

  I don't know how you can publish a video without jeopardy of being discovered by those JWs who know you. I suspect you've somehow got that all worked out and I truly wish you the very best.

  Len Miller
• 
  51

  the TRUTH about DISFELLOWSHIPPING and SHUNNING from JESUS view

  by Terry in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  loving and forgiving are a huge component of jesus' message to his disciples.. in answer to the question as to how many times forgiveness should be offered to an offender, jesus gave the reply, "seventy (times) seven.

  " (variously interpreted as either 77 times or a multiple of 70 times 7).. an example is given of a man who owed a considerable sum of money whose debt was forgiven.

  this man failed to forgive a much smaller debt owed to him.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Fatfreek

  Burn, your argument does not pass muster. Terry, or anyone, has the right to argue anything he wishes -- and we have the right to rebut those arguments with our own.

  To attack Terry on items not related to his arguments is called an ad hominen attack. I assure you that in an open and fair forum you really don't want to do that.

  We ethically don't have the right to attack Terry because of what he may, or may not, have going on at times inside his head. Fact is, it's none of my business or yours.

  Now think about this: While the Society has its own team of lawyers, it obviously does not meet all its defense needs. Therefore, they are known to frequently use hired hands, contractors, attorneys in private practice who are not Jehovah's Witnesses. Can you imagine how ludicrous it would be for the judge, or the opposing team of attorneys, to somehow object to the fact that the WT team of attorneys are not JWs? "How can you represent the Watchtower Society when you, yourselves, are not JWs, that you may not even have their belief of no blood transfusions? They'd be laughing stock.

  Len Miller
• 
  11

  Major changes between the years 1968 and 2005

  by White Dove in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  what are some major changes during these years that i was completely in the dark about?

  these are the years that i was in.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Fatfreek

  They've reversed, since 1968, their doctrinal position on the resurrection of those from ancient Sodom and Gomorrah 4 more times. That makes a total of 8 positions since 1879.
  
  Amazingly, they haven't reversed their position on the Superior Authorities once since 1968. Their total positions on that doctrine is only 3.
  
  Transplanting of human body parts has only seen 1 reversal in those years. Their total positions on that doctrine is only 3.
  
  Who is the Alpha and the Omega of Rev. 22:12,13? They reversed themselves twice in those years. Their position tally on this one is currently at 4.

  All, quite amazing from a leadership that claims “However, it may have seemed to some as though that path has not always gone straight forward. At times explanations given by Jehovah’s visible organization have shown adjustments, seemingly to previous points of view. But this has not actually been the case." The Watchtower, 1981, 12/1 p. 27
  
  
  For more complete details, check out this link .
  
  Len Miller
• 
  4

  Barb Anderson describes the Bethel libraries

  by Fatfreek in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  a month or so, ago, i asked barbara anderson, by way of email, a question about the bethel libraries, in particular, the one(s) to which the writers had access.

  this i was able to do because i had also had access to every book the society published.

  these experiences made up the ones found in the divine purpose book and the 1975 yearbook.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Fatfreek

  A month or so, ago, I asked Barbara Anderson, by way of email, a question about the Bethel libraries, in particular, the one(s) to which the writers had access. I had hoped, based on her experience and perspective, she would jump in on one of our threads where the library topic had been raised. I didn’t know until several days ago that she and Joe had been away on vacation. Well, she emailed me an answer about those libraries which I thought to be very interesting. I asked her permission to share it all of with you, which she granted. I also decided to create a thread of its own – this one. As an aside, one of the posters to the original thread had made mention of a secret room. Barbara addresses this as well. Len Miller.
  
  As to inf ormation about t he libraries in Bethel , I’ll try to answer your questions. However, I don’t think I can validate that there was a “secret” room which was used to hide Watch Tower literature that the organization doesn’t want people to see.
  
  When I was in Bethel, the Writing Library was located on the 8th floor of the 25 Columbia Heights office building . It was under the control of librarian and senior writer, Gene Smalley, and his secretary/assistant, Sarah Hall. My office was also on the 8th floor, at the East River end of the building.
  
  A lobby and elevators located in the center of each floor in the building divided all the floors in half. The library was located in the central part at the other end of the 8th floor with staffs’ private offices located around the library. I recall that there were about eight to ten offices of average size on each side of the library, along with Klein's very large office on one side.
  
  To me, the Writing Department's library seemed huge, but I have no idea how many books there were and the area they all occupied.
  
  The use of the library was confined to the Writing, Art, and Graphics departments -- which all fell under the control of Writing. Any Bethelites not connected with these departments, and wishing to use the library for research, needed special permission to do so. Otherwise it was off-limits.
  
  Special tours could be arranged by staff to bring friends and relatives into the Writing Department and staff guides could show them the library. During the nearly four years when I was in that department, I brought in quite a number of visitors and showed them interesting items on the shelves and told them how the department operated. There was no prohibition against taking pictures that I can remember. In fact, many visitors in my tours took pictures.
  
  To the best of my knowledge, every Watch Tower Society publication could be found in the Writing Department's library. In addition, there were hundreds of books not published by the Society. There were Bible commentaries galore, and shelves upon shelves of old and new books on religion, Bible history, and archeology. There were also books about current events.
  
  One of the assignments from my overseer, Karl Adams, was to list every publication which J. F. Rutherford had written. This I was able to do because I had also had access to every book the Society published. Karl wanted a fresh look at the number and names of Rutherford’s books and so I did not use some previously published list.
  
  All of my assignments involved the Society’s publications in some way or the other, so how could I have done my job if all of the books were not available for me to see.
  
  To believe that there was some secret room where Watch Tower secret books were hidden is not something I can accept. Since I was researching for the compilation of a history book, I was given unlimited opportunity to go anywhere in the Bethel complex and talk to anybody about the Society’s history, so there’s no reason to suppose that there were hidden and secret books. If there were, I believe I would have found them or heard about them in those three years of research. During my detective-like investigation of the Society’s history, I found material no one knew of before, so why would the Governing Body and the Writing departments try to hide material from me?
  
  I remember a storage closet located at the end of the 8th floor near my office, which contained only "apostate" books. That was open to the Writing staff. All the publications we are familiar with that are in opposition to Jehovah's Witnesses could be found there. At the time, I was too busy to read any of them. Also, I might add, I was not interested in them because I believed they were filled with lies about “Jehovah’s organization.”
  
  Located all around the Bethel homes were smaller libraries such as you would find in many Kingdom Halls. Inside, there usually were a few chairs, lamp tables and a couch. The shelves would generally contain all seven volumes of the Reprints of the Watchtower journals from 1879-1919; many Bible translations, and miscellaneous Watchtower Society books. There were other books that Gene thought could be of some importance and which Bethelites might need for personal research.
  
  In all my Writing Department tenure, I never heard of a hidden library, but I knew of a private archival storage area that only Gene and his secretary/assistant frequented. I don't know where it was located because I didn’t think to ask and because it was none of my business. It probably was behind one of the closed office doors on the 8th or 9th floor of the building. In such a room, Gene and his assistant stored old Society correspondence and duplicate copies of some very old Society publications which Gene would use to replace excessively worn copies found on the library shelves.
  I had access to the contents of the off-limits archival room but only through a formal request. All I had to do was ask to see an item and it was checked out to me within a few hours. Here are some examples of what was kept inside:

  • any or all of the letters that C. T. Russell wrote on a particular subject
  • the Russells’ divorce court trial transcript
  • C. T. Russell’s appeals of the divorce and other papers to do with those events
  • Rutherford’s and the Society’s private papers related to the Watch Tower directors’ sedition trial which took place in June, 1918
  • anything to do with the Photo-Drama of Creation.

  In the Russell and Rutherford era it was common for the Bible Students to publish one-page, newspaper size tracts, which were then handed to people outside of conventions, etc. Some of these papers strongly resembled newspapers or large advertisements which, I believe, was the Society’s intent, in order that people would be more inclined to accept that free copy. I have a copy of one which, at first glance, appears to be a union newspaper, but upon closer examination, it was announcing the Kingdom as the hope of mankind -- not of any union. During those years, there were many of these produced and the Writing Department kept the original, yellowed, and fragile copies in the Writing Department’s archival room rather than on some library bookshelf.
  
  Writing staff member, Ciro Aulicino, was there to provide us with any books we wanted for research from the huge downtown New York City Public Library. He went there every Wednesday to fill our orders.
  
  Don Kommers, of the Building Office, kept a warehouse storage area which contained huge quantities of old Society literature and other material associated with the Witness work. That unfinished room was located on an otherwise empty and unfinished floor of the 30 Columbia Heights building. There, I saw plenty of raw wooden shelves that held many, many sets of WT Reprints; sets of Millennial Dawn and Studies in the Scriptures; sets of the Rutherford "Rainbow" series books; Russell and Rutherford wax records; old record players, and anything else connected with the early activities of the religion.

  There was a large basket filled with "Cross and Crown" pins; plus other miscellaneous items that the Bible Students wore, or used. These included little books which they would fill with names and birth dates of other Bible Students. They also included cards with Bible texts that they would send to each other.
  
  Kommers was Vern Wisegarver’s assistant. Vern managed the Building Office. That office, amongst other things, oversaw the upkeep of the interior of both Columbia Heights buildings. During the course of going to estate sales and warehouses during furniture auctions, Kommers and his assistants would bring back to his storage area any old WT literature they would find. Estates, which Watch Tower was beneficiary, supplied plenty of old literature that went into Watch Tower trucks to be brought back and stored in that room.

  Kommers once showed me a 2” x 2” (that’s teeny) Bible that he claimed belonged to Russell and that he obtained during one of his ventures. He also told me he had a large private collection of personal Russell and Rutherford letters.
  
  A memorable experience
  I once went into a small room located on the Writing Department's floor which had thousands of file folders containing the submitted final copy of each author's last draft of material that ended up printed in WT literature. Attached to each manuscript was the source material.
  
  In that room there also was this huge (wide, not tall) metal file cabinet. One of its drawers contained quotes from letters that were from those who claimed to be of the anointed. Before the publishing of the book, Jehovah’s Witnesses in the Divine Purpose, a request had gone out from the Society to every congregation in the US. Whether it went around the world, I don't know. The letter asked for the names and addresses of the most loyal of the older "anointed" ones. If that person was a pioneer, better yet. These "old" faithful folks were asked to send to the Society any of their experiences which demonstrated their loyalty, etc., as Witnesses throughout their years of service. Some of these people even lived when Russell was around and the Society certainly wanted to hear all C. T. Russell experiences.
  
  Thrilled is not adequate to describe the feelings, expressed by these people, that they would actually get such an invitation. They responded by the thousands. The letters (many of them were very lengthy) were cut up according to experience and all of them were found in that cabinet. The manila file folders which contained the experiences were broken down into subjects. Each experience, by being cut from the original letter, had no identification on it, so the name of the letter writer was reattached. It must have been a huge undertaking to do this work.
  
  These experiences made up the ones found in the Divine Purpose book and the 1975 Yearbook. For what it's worth, Karl Adams wrote the 1975 Yearbook. John Wischuck was the author of the Divine Purpose book. I was told that Divine Purpose had so many errors in it, that's why they came out with Jehovah's Witnesses — Proclaimers of God's Kingdom.
  
  In conclusion and making an educated guess, I think that during a personal tour, given by some long-time Writing Dept. staff member to friends or family, when the group walked by the archives room maintained by Gene Smalley, probably a remark was made by the tour-guide about the “secret room” filled with old, never-seen material. This is the only explanation I can think of for claims made by some Witnesses of such a "secret" room existing.

  Barbara Anderson
• 
  140

  huge announcement after the Watchtower study on the 27 of April?

  by Dogpatch in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  there will be a huge announcement after the watchtower study on the 27 of april.. for what it's worth, this was just sent to me anonymously.. randy.

  www.freeminds.org.

  .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Fatfreek

  "The people of Sodom WILL be resurrected... and that's final."

  That a clever one, Fadeout. Their 8 positions on that topic probably exceed those of Paris Hilton.

  Len
• 
  22

  Flip-flops can be beautiful -- our allies?

  by Fatfreek in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  flip-flops can be beautiful -- our allies -- as they can be used to reveal evidence of the lack of spirit-direction which the society so readily claims.

  the following link is to a 16 page essay that does just that but in a manner that i hope you'll find is objective and less vitriolic than is sometimes found.

  the revealing wt quotations are all, with the exception of one (from the 1879 launch of zions watch tower), from the wt library (2005) on cd.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Fatfreek

  Uggghhhh, Open Mind, you caught me looking at that while eating my Cheerios. You are quite right -- not always.

  Sorry I couldn't paste it here as I'm using Firefox.

  I use Firefox also. You may want to try tips here .

  Does this mean that Jesus and Jehovah are one and the same person in WT eyes?

  I've never known them to have that postion.

  Len
• 
  22

  Flip-flops can be beautiful -- our allies?

  by Fatfreek in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  flip-flops can be beautiful -- our allies -- as they can be used to reveal evidence of the lack of spirit-direction which the society so readily claims.

  the following link is to a 16 page essay that does just that but in a manner that i hope you'll find is objective and less vitriolic than is sometimes found.

  the revealing wt quotations are all, with the exception of one (from the 1879 launch of zions watch tower), from the wt library (2005) on cd.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Fatfreek

  TheOldHippie: The Alpha and Omega 1978 Watchtower was a typo, they printed Jesus in stead of Jehovah …

  As of the 2005 WT Library CD, they maintain Jesus as the subject throughout. Here's a full contextual quotation (bolding is mine):

  *** w78 10/1 pp. 14-15 pars. 5-6 “Keep on the Watch” ***
  
  5 The Lord Jesus Christ prophesied plainly concerning our day. Repeatedly in these prophecies, he emphasized the need for our keeping awake. Here are some of his sayings, as variously reported:
  
  “Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.”—Matt. 24:42.
  
  “Prove yourselves ready, because at an hour that you do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming.”—Matt. 24:44.
  
  “Keep on the watch, therefore, because you know neither the day nor the hour.”—Matt. 25:13.
  
  “You, then, watch out; I have told you all things beforehand.”—Mark 13:23.
  
  “Keep looking, keep awake, for you do not know when the appointed time is.”—Mark 13:33.
  
  “Keep on the watch, for you do not know when the master . . . is coming.”—Mark 13:35.
  
  “What I say to you I say to all, Keep on the watch.”—Mark 13:37.
  
  “Happy are those slaves whom the master on arriving finds watching!”—Luke 12:37.
  
  “Keep ready, because at an hour that you do not think likely the Son of man is coming.”—Luke 12:40.
  
  “Suddenly that day [will] be instantly upon you as a snare. For it will come in upon all those dwelling upon the face of all the earth. Keep awake, then.”—Luke 21:34-36.
  
  6 Also, in his final revelation concerning “the things that must shortly take place,” Jesus again stresses the suddenness with which he comes:
  
  “I am coming to you quickly . . . I am coming quickly. Keep on holding fast what you have.”—Rev. 2:16; 3:11.
  
  “Look! I am coming quickly. . . . Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me. . . . Yes; I am coming quickly.” (Rev. 22:7, 12, 20)
  
  In response to these last expressions of our Master, surely each one of us joins with the apostle John in saying: “Amen! Come, Lord Jesus.”
• 
  22

  Flip-flops can be beautiful -- our allies?

  by Fatfreek in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  flip-flops can be beautiful -- our allies -- as they can be used to reveal evidence of the lack of spirit-direction which the society so readily claims.

  the following link is to a 16 page essay that does just that but in a manner that i hope you'll find is objective and less vitriolic than is sometimes found.

  the revealing wt quotations are all, with the exception of one (from the 1879 launch of zions watch tower), from the wt library (2005) on cd.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Fatfreek

  TheOldHippie: Two of them are "fake" flip-flops, I am sorry to say. The Alpha and Omega 1978 Watchtower was a typo, they printed Jesus in stead of Jehovah …
  
  First, I must ask you as I read your explanations, are you talking from firsthand experience or speculation? Were you personally privy to the writing, editing, and printing process during these articles in question or did someone tell you this? Assuming the latter, can you source what you’re saying?
  
  To say something is a typo does not rest well with me. I suspect that many of the readers to your posting feel the same. It’s an alibi that’s so easy to say -- impossible to prove.
  
  Let me illustrate: Your handle, TheOldHippie, is quite unique. [There are probably many ways it can be subject to a typographical error, a mistake during the typing process -- transposing a letter or two, omitting a letter or two, even substituting a few letters. By most definitions, however, a typo excludes errors of ignorance.] I could mistype your handle with TheOldHippy, TheOleHipy, YeHippieOld, etc., etc., you get the idea.
  
  To replace TheOldHippie with ThatNewBeatnik does not fall into the typo bucket, it’s plain ignorant. To replace Jesus with Jehovah, Satan with Jesus, Yes with No, or vice versa would also be ignorant. Remember, it’s not as if a person types it and we then read it. I don’t have to tell you that there are many steps to the editorial and printing process.
  
  I wouldn’t suggest the alibi thing if they didn’t have a history of resorting to it.
  
  Their process of their publishing allows a window of time opportunity for revising the historical integrity of their writings. With the magazines there are the bound volumes and the other language editions. With books there are the other language editions.
  
  Remember one of their more recent prophetic statements, one which didn’t fail till only a few years ago?

  In this instance, rather than a specific year, they had predicted a century. “…Shortly, within our twentieth century, the "battle in the day of Jehovah" will begin against the modern antitype of Jerusalem, Christendom.” The Nations Shall Know That I Am Jehovah - How? 1971, Chap. 12 pp. 216-217
  
  We all know that prediction failed. Nowadays they would have loved to resort to the typo alibi but some 29 years before the turn of the century, they remained convinced of the validity of that statement. Remember 1975?
  
  Move ahead some 18 years where they make that same blunder. Here, The Watchtower, 1988, January 1, page 12, said in its original printing, “… a work that would be completed in our 20th century.” Aha! After reading this, many inside critics probability stepped in and yelled, “Hey, it’s getting too close. We may have to eat these words. Perhaps we should soften them.”
  
  Recall how they replaced the phrase “our 20th century” with “our day” inside the Bound Volume? To check this out, honest-hearted persons need only find originals or scans of originals.
  
  You may wish to call that a typo correction as well. Well, that’s your priviledge.
  
  I won’t because I have a real issue with their their credibility. I cannot accept some weak alibi from some group that must goes so far as to redefine the very meaning of a Lie -- where
  If people aren't entitled to truth we need not divulge it.
  A lie is condemned only if it’s done with malice.
  
  Check it out from your own WT Library CD: Insight on the Scriptures, p. 245, Lie: “While malicious lying is definitely condemned in the Bible, this does not mean that a person is under obligation to divulge truthful information to people who are not entitled to it.”
  
  TheOldHippie: Also the first example is not a correct one, as the Insight article sort of lived its own life and the Watchtower articles were consistent; the Insight article is hard to date, but it has been translated differently to other languages and therefore most probably also has to be classified as a typo.
  
  Is that more speculation on your part? Who told you this?
  
  If you had read the essay you would not say article, singular. Plural, as in the word is the word articles, as there are five distinct articles within those encyclopedic volumes: Destruction, Repentance, Sodom, Gomorrah, and Judgment Day. Each of them consistently presented the same interpretation. Oh, that hard to date claim of yours? It was Friday, June 17 following the district convention discourse.
  
  Finally, the Insight sort of lived its own life ? What can you possibly mean by that statement? The writers were different? If so, I can buy that but neither you or I know anything except what we’re told. What I’ve written is what they’ve told us in their own writings. What have they told you?
  
  Or are you telling me that they’re human-directed instead of spirit-directed? I can buy that too but that’s not they’re telling us. The current baptismal vow distinctly embeds the term spirit-directed within one of its two questions. "Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with God’s spirit-directed organization?"Watchtower, 1985, 6/1 p. 30.
  
  Len Miller
• 
  4

  1988 "Insight on the Scriptures", that New Light reference?

  by Fatfreek in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  over at freeminds, an article describes the 1988 release of insight on the scriptures.. .

  "an attractive new bible dictionary has been released this year by the watchtower bible & tract society called insight on the scriptures, in two volumes, which is designed to replace the former bible dictionary (1969, 1971) entitled aid to bible understanding.

  while much of the text of this new publication has been taken verbatim from the aid book, there are several new features to take note of: (1) larger, more readable type, (2) full color illustrations, (3) an index at the end of vol.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Fatfreek

  Thanks Hippie and Wiz for checking that for me in your copies. I'm at the disadvantage of only having a copy of its successor, the Aid book.
  
  Thanks, Blondie, for your CD data.
  
  Len