Fatfreek

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Posts by Fatfreek

• 
  34

  Who's the best JWN liar? I'll start -- "we shun you cuz we love you"

  by Fatfreek in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  a wisconsin man won top prize in the "world's best liar" contest.. the burlington liars club gave its top award to 58-year-old public health inspector jerry legro of sun prairie.

  his lie: ""i just realized how bad the economy really is.

  i recently bought a new toaster oven and as a complimentary gift, i was given a bank.".

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  Fatfreek

  Sure, you can express your opinion after you're baptized.
• 
  34

  Who's the best JWN liar? I'll start -- "we shun you cuz we love you"

  by Fatfreek in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  a wisconsin man won top prize in the "world's best liar" contest.. the burlington liars club gave its top award to 58-year-old public health inspector jerry legro of sun prairie.

  his lie: ""i just realized how bad the economy really is.

  i recently bought a new toaster oven and as a complimentary gift, i was given a bank.".

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  Fatfreek

  Russell did not believe in pyramidology.
• 
  34

  Who's the best JWN liar? I'll start -- "we shun you cuz we love you"

  by Fatfreek in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  a wisconsin man won top prize in the "world's best liar" contest.. the burlington liars club gave its top award to 58-year-old public health inspector jerry legro of sun prairie.

  his lie: ""i just realized how bad the economy really is.

  i recently bought a new toaster oven and as a complimentary gift, i was given a bank.".

  1. 
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• 

  Fatfreek

  You had a dead end job for the last 40 years? Well, we never advised you to quit your career, sell your home, and pioneer back in 1975.
• 
  34

  Who's the best JWN liar? I'll start -- "we shun you cuz we love you"

  by Fatfreek in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  a wisconsin man won top prize in the "world's best liar" contest.. the burlington liars club gave its top award to 58-year-old public health inspector jerry legro of sun prairie.

  his lie: ""i just realized how bad the economy really is.

  i recently bought a new toaster oven and as a complimentary gift, i was given a bank.".

  1. 
  2. 
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• 

  Fatfreek

  A Wisconsin man won top prize in the "World's Best Liar" contest.

  The Burlington Liars Club gave its top award to 58-year-old public health inspector Jerry Legro of Sun Prairie. His lie: ""I just realized how bad the economy really is. I recently bought a new toaster oven and as a complimentary gift, I was given a bank."

  Hey, the Liars Club has been doing this kind of thing for many years. How about here on JWN. If you were a real liar what would you say to compete?

  Here's my entry: We shun you cuz we love you. The GB.

  Len
• 
  10

  Russell re Millerite founder -- "Father Miller" no less than 4 times

  by Fatfreek in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  most of us know about the millerites and their founder and how some 50,000 folks during the 19th century looked for the end.

  question: was there any link between them and the founder of the watchtower society?.

  i will quote below the first reference of miller to illustrate that russell's feelings for miller were by no means antagonistic but were fond and loving.

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  Fatfreek

  What follows are more Watch Tower associations to William Miller (no relation to me, Len Miller, and founder of the Millerites).

  "And The Door Was Shut", Zion's Watch Tower, November, 1881 (highlighting is mine)

  "For the sake of the many new readers of the WATCH TOWER,

  it may not be amiss to give a general review of the steps of faith

  by which the Lord has been leading us as a people, during the

  last seven years, and in a general sense during the preceding

  thirty-five years.

  "The parable of "The Ten Virgins" (Matt. 25) seems to have been

  given as a pen picture of some of the important events connected

  with the close of the Gospel Age. ...

  "While we are neither "Millerites" nor "Adventists," yet we

  believe that this much of this parable met its fulfillment in 1843

  and 1844, when William Miller and others, Bible in hand,

  walked out by faith on its statements, expecting Jesus at that

  time. ...

  "It was evident, then, that though the manner in which they had

  expected Jesus was in error, yet the time, as indicated by the

  "Midnight Cry," was correct, and that the Bridegroom came in

  the Autumn of 1874, and he appeared to the eyes of faith-- seen

  by the light of the lamp--the Word. Afterward it was seen that

  the thirty years of tarrying between 1844 and 1874 was the exact

  parallel to the thirty years of tarrying at the first advent, from the

  time the wise men visited the babe until Jesus stood on Jordan

  and was anointed with the Holy Ghost for his work, at thirty

  years of age. (Acts 10:38.)"

  Len
• 
  10

  Russell re Millerite founder -- "Father Miller" no less than 4 times

  by Fatfreek in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  most of us know about the millerites and their founder and how some 50,000 folks during the 19th century looked for the end.

  question: was there any link between them and the founder of the watchtower society?.

  i will quote below the first reference of miller to illustrate that russell's feelings for miller were by no means antagonistic but were fond and loving.

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  Fatfreek

  The header to the article in question, Zion's Watchtower, May, 1883 was "THE INVISIBLE THINGS OF HIM". The byline at the end credits a J. C. SUNDERLIN. While Russell apparently didn't pen the article, as Editor and Publisher Russell endorsed, authenticated, and validated the contents of every editorial contribution.

  Sunderlin was a trusted and major contributor to early Zion's Watch Tower articles. A brief scan of those early magazines shows that he was a principal player in this religion's role. His first editorial contribution was in letter form in October, 1880. His name first appeared on the head page of the January 1, 1881 issue .

  C. T. RUSSELL, Editor and Publisher.

  ----------

  REGULAR CONTRIBUTORS.

  J. H. PATON, . . . . ALMONT, MICH.

  W. I. MANN, . . . . SWISSVALE, PA.

  B. W. KEITH, . . . DANSVILLE, N.Y.

  A. D. JONES, . . . PITTSBURGH, PA.

  L. ALLEN, . . . . . HONEOYE, N.Y.

  J. C. SUNDERLIN, . FT. EDWARD, N.Y.

  The scan shows that one of his assignments was in Great Britain. If he directed the work over there I didn't find that.

  Even modern Watchtower publications have a few references to Sunderlin.
  "Brother Russell dispatched two associates, J. C. Sunderlin and J. J. Bender, to Britain to supervise the distribution of 300,000 copies there. Brother Sunderlin went to London, while Brother Bender traveled north into Scotland and then worked his way south. Principal attention was given to larger cities. By means of newspaper ads, capable men were located, and contracts were made with them to arrange for enough helpers to distribute their allotment of copies. Nearly 500 distributors were recruited in London alone. The work was done quickly, on two consecutive Sundays."Jehovah'sWitnesses-ProclaimersofGod'sKingdom (1993), chap.22p.405

  He wrote many articles for Zion's WT. During one lengthy period ZWT refers to Bro Sunderlin as being bedridden with a severe illness. The last mention of Sunderlin I could find was February, 1884, where he contributed the lengthy piece, "Flight In Winter".

  "Actually he was referring to Miller as the father of the Great Second Advent Movement". Sorry, RR, but I would have to agree with Satanus that you don't present a very convincing argument to make that claim.

  Zion's Watch Tower, in my opinion, subscribed to the moniker "Father Miller" because of a great admiration for what they supposed he had done as forerunner for their mission. As a refresher, please refer to a portion of the above quotation. There, mentioning Miller's early prediction, ZWT (highlighting is mine) says: "That awakening set many Christians to examining the Word with extreme care, the result of which is that many interesting parallels between the Jewish and Gospel ages have been discovered, and it is now convincingly known that the first step toward the second advent did take place at or about that time, but not in the manner that Father Miller had expected."

  Within that article, ZWT saw Miller's 1843 proclamation as being contemporaneous with other scientific developments of that time. While I, and most today, are convinced that was a foolish supposition, they felt it was noteworthy and significant.

  "In 1833 "Father Miller" began to lecture upon the second coming of Christ, and premised that it would take place in the fall of 1843. In 1832 the electro-magnetic telegraph was conceived by Morse while on a transatlantic voyage, and it was born in 1835, "when he put up a half mile of wire in coils around a room and exhibited a telegraph in operation." "In the morning of March 4th, 1843, he was startled with the announcement that the desired aid of Congress had been obtained in the midnight hour of the expiring session, and thirty thousand dollars placed at his disposal for his experimental essay between Washington and Baltimore. In 1844 the work was completed and demonstrated to the world.

  "In 1843, it is believed, occurs the first suggestion of the project of the Atlantic Telegraph (American Cyclopedia, Vol. II, page 850), and a few years after was realized the fact (whatever bearing it may have upon the subject) that real lightning, conveying intelligence, shone from "the East" to "the West," and vice versa.

  "While we would not be fanciful nor morbidly imaginative, we would not be too slow to mark the striking coincidence of events which seem to indicate the fulfillment of prophecy."

  Len
• 
  10

  Russell re Millerite founder -- "Father Miller" no less than 4 times

  by Fatfreek in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  most of us know about the millerites and their founder and how some 50,000 folks during the 19th century looked for the end.

  question: was there any link between them and the founder of the watchtower society?.

  i will quote below the first reference of miller to illustrate that russell's feelings for miller were by no means antagonistic but were fond and loving.

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  Fatfreek

  That last quotation from Zion's WT of May, 1883 may be more profound than what first meets the eye.

  That awakening set many Christians to examining the Word
  with extreme care, the result of which is that many interesting
  parallels between the Jewish and Gospel ages have been
  discovered, and it is now convincingly known that the first step
  toward the second advent did take place at or about that time,
  but not in the manner that Father Miller had expected.

  Just my humble opinion, of course, but it's not a great stretch that Russell was regarding Miller as the Father of the Russellites -- the Father of the Bible Students -- and, yes, the Father of what would become the group known as Jehovah's Witnesses .

  Len
• 
  10

  Russell re Millerite founder -- "Father Miller" no less than 4 times

  by Fatfreek in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  most of us know about the millerites and their founder and how some 50,000 folks during the 19th century looked for the end.

  question: was there any link between them and the founder of the watchtower society?.

  i will quote below the first reference of miller to illustrate that russell's feelings for miller were by no means antagonistic but were fond and loving.

  1. 
  2. 
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  Fatfreek

  Most of us know about the Millerites and their founder and how some 50,000 folks during the 19th century looked for the end. Question: Was there any link between them and the founder of the Watchtower Society?
  
  In searching the early Zion's Watch Tower, from 1879 through 1916, I found it interesting that Russell refers to William Miller (Millerite founder) several times. I will quote below the first reference of Miller to illustrate that Russell's feelings for Miller were by no means antagonistic but were fond and loving. Fact is, he referred to him as "Father Miller" no less than 4 times in early ZWTs.
  
  Even as late as 1923 (some 79 years after Miller's failed prediction, 7 years after Russell's death, and 4 years after Christ endorsed the Watchtower folks as his only true flock in 1919), Rutherford referred to him as "brother": "It is true that Brother William Miller made a mistake in calculating the year of our Lord's return."
  
  Zion's Watch Tower, April, 1880,
  Just at a proper time then, as the word of God had begun to
  circulate freely, comes what is commonly known as the Miller
  movement. It was a movement among Christian people of all
  denominations, principally Methodists and Baptists, a general
  awakening, and included many of the best people in all of the
  churches. Mr. Wm. Miller, a very Godly man, (a baptist) was
  the prime mover in this country, though simultaneously Wolf
  and others were calling attention to the same subject in Europe
  and Asia; the real movement, however, was in our own land.
  But the parable mentions a going forth to meet, etc. What does
  this signify? This is another evidence of our stage of the church,
  for although the Bible had always taught the "second coming of Christ," yet
  it had been understood in so general a way that none were able
  to settle upon any definite time and say-- then he will come;
  consequently there could be no such going forth to meet him, as
  is demanded by the parable. Now the case is changed, Wm.
  Miller's attention is attracted to and riveted upon the prophecies.
  He reads: "Unto 2300 days and the sanctuary shall be cleansed."
  He counts and finds that it would end in 1843 or 1844. He
  supposes the earth to be the sanctuary and expects its cleansing
  to be by literal fire. He, though a calm deliberate man, could not
  forbear to tell his fellows that so read the prophecies, and so he
  believed. It spread rapidly, among old and young alike, and
  many virgins after examining with the lamp, were convinced
  that the word taught them to expect the coming of their Bridegroom
  in 1844; and on the strength of this faith they went forth to meet
  him. In going they walked by faith, not by sight, but they did
  what the virgins never had done before, because never before
  had the word, or lamp led them to thus definitely expect him.
  (We believe him to have erred both in what the sanctuary is and
  what the fire is.) ...
  
  The evidences from scripture that the 6,000 years would end and
  the morning dawn in 1873, and that, with the morning the
  Bridegroom was due, was preached upon by a brother of very
  marked ability as a prophetic student, who also published a
  series of articles on the subject in the leading paper of that
  denomination, ("The World's Crisis") as well as afterward in a
  pamphlet, and finally as a monthly paper called "The Midnight
  Cry." The message attracted general attention from the people of
  that denomination, so that in a few issues its circulation ran up
  to 15,000, or more than all other papers devoted to the subject of
  the Second Advent together. This, we believe, fulfilled this
  parable, not that Advent people alone are virgins, but they were
  the part of the company that were at that time looking for the
  Bridegroom, but asleep and unconscious as to the time of His
  coming. ...
  
  This cry proclaimed to the virgins that the "2,300 days" did end in 1844,
  but that the thing expected was wrong.

  The next reference is one where he used the curious term, "Father Miller".

  Zion's Watchtower, May, 1883 (bold is my highlighting)
  Father Miller, upon whom so much reproach has fallen (but who
  was a devoted Christian man of irreproachable Christian
  character), saw that there was an important, prophetic point in
  about 1843, and supposed that Christ was to personally and
  visibly appear to the world at that time, and that it would be the
  closing up of earthly affairs; but, when disappointment came,
  unlike many of his followers, he was not despondent, but
  believed that the Lord would lead his people to a further
  understanding of his word and designs, and that in the fullness
  of time he would come.
  That awakening set many Christians to examining the Word
  with extreme care, the result of which is that many interesting
  parallels between the Jewish and Gospel ages have been
  discovered, and it is now convincingly known that the first step
  toward the second advent did take place at or about that time,
  but not in the manner that Father Miller had expected.

  Len Miller
• 
  21

  Have a laugh at these cringe-worthy Watchtower interpretations. JW's must be so embarrassed.

  by yadda yadda 2 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  utterly embarrassing.

  how many jw's honestly believe these daft interpretations?

  hard to believe these are actually held out as current truth lol.

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  Fatfreek

  Thanks, Lukewarm, for that citation. I've since changed the table, removed redundancies, and uploaded it as a jpg file to Photobucket so that the link can be used anywhere -- email, etc. For that purpose, here's the link:

  http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u92/millerlr/WatchtowerWavering1260days.jpg

  If you spot any errors let me know and I'll correct and re-upload the newer image. Len Miller

  
• 
  21

  Have a laugh at these cringe-worthy Watchtower interpretations. JW's must be so embarrassed.

  by yadda yadda 2 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  utterly embarrassing.

  how many jw's honestly believe these daft interpretations?

  hard to believe these are actually held out as current truth lol.

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  Fatfreek

  It's almost comical how Watchtower has waffled on the 1260 days alone. Placing these contradictions into a table may help some lurker better see what's happening. I created the following table in Word 2007 and apologize that the different colored rows don't come across. It helped to highlight the fact that there have been 7 position changes over the years.

  The 1260 Days
  	Begins	Ends
  Zion's Watch Tower, April 1880	538 AD	1798 AD
  Zion's Watch Tower, Sep 1, 15, 1898	539 AD	1799 AD
  Zion's Watch Tower, Aug 1, 1915	539 AD	1799 AD
  Zion's Watch Tower, Aug 1, 1915[1]	325 AD	1585 AD
  The Watch Tower and Herald...12/15/1929	Oct 1, 1914	Apr 1, 1918
  Light 1 (1930)	Nov 7, 1914	May 7, 1918
  Watchtower, Jul 1, 1951	Oct 1, 1914	Apr 1, 1918
  Finished Mystery, 1969	Oct 4, 1914	Mar 26, 1918
  Incoming World Government, 1977	Dec 28, 1914	Jun 21, 1918
  Revelation Climax, 1988	Dec, 1914	Jun, 1918
  Watchtower, Nov 1, 1993	Dec, 1914	Jun 21, 1918
  Kingdom Ministry[2], Sep 2006	Dec, 1914	Jun, 1918

  ---

  [1] "In another sense, however, the 1260 years would very properly extend from the year 325 A.D. to the year 1585 A.D. It was in the year 325 A.D. that the self-styled apostolic bishops convened under the patronage of Emperor Constantine, constituted themselves the Ecumenical Council of Nice, and formulated the first of the great Creeds, the Nicene Creed."

  [2] An insert paste-up alters Revelation Climax page