Posts by donny

what i am referring to is the belligerent, hateful atheism that smacks of trolls and other types who want to derail conversation or comments at any cost..

i enjoy hearing comments from both sides of the subjects of theism, nationalism or politics, especially from those who have intense opinions.

Asshole Atheism – Not for me, now or ever.

by donny in

to start off with let me clarify that by asshole atheism i am not referring to strong atheism or any other type of upfront atheism.

what i am referring to is the belligerent, hateful atheism that smacks of trolls and other types who want to derail conversation or comments at any cost..

i enjoy hearing comments from both sides of the subjects of theism, nationalism or politics, especially from those who have intense opinions.

To start off with let me clarify that by “asshole atheism” I am not referring to “strong atheism” or any other type of upfront atheism. What I am referring to is the belligerent, hateful atheism that smacks of trolls and other types who want to derail conversation or comments at any cost.

I enjoy hearing comments from both sides of the subjects of theism, nationalism or politics, especially from those who have intense opinions. As long as there is a decent conversation, comment all you want.

When I walked among those in the theist and Republican camps, I encountered many who wore the moniker of “asshole” quite often and it was one of the many reasons I eventually came to my senses and eventually embraced agnostic atheism. What shocked me as time went on was finding similar such folk on this side of the fence, although the numbers are lower.

Over the last few years I have been criticized for “liking” comments on my Facebook page made by folks/family on my friends list who make statements stating that their prayer or belief in God has helped them endure a calamity going on in their life regarding health, the loss of a loved one, etc. One fellow unbeliever IM’d me regarding one such post and said I should have replied “You should thank and lean on your doctor and not some placebo God for your return to health.”

Sorry, that is utter bovine fecal matter.

When I “like” such comments, I am not endorsing their religious claims, I am lending my support and/or consolidation for whatever they are going through at the moment. I am letting them know I am thinking about them and I am happy when they feel better. I am showing the good side of humanity.

On another recent thread that was debating on whether or not Jesus was who he is claimed to be by todays Christians. I commented that I believe Jesus was one of many itinerant messianic preachers of the day and that his message was only for those of that current generation.

This was followed by a “supporting” comment that read; “That’s right Ray and these people need to know that Jesus was a faggot and pedophile who through secret documents he gave to his followers has resulted in the child-molesting, homosexual centric group known today as the Catholic Church.”

That resulted in not only in me deleting my comment, but the whole thread and its 200+ comments as well. These type of comments have no use other than to inflame. If that person is really an atheist, then he belongs in the camp with folks like Ann Coulter or the late Fred Phelps who also do little to nothing in presenting data that could show their views in a positive light. He even IM’d me stating that I was a weak atheist.

While I believe the Bible is nothing more than the writings and musings of a long-ago culture who were trying to boost the morale of those who read it, it does have some good points here and there. One of them is Ecclesiastes 3:7 which reads there “a time to tear and a time to mend, a time to be silent and a time to speak.”

If one cannot be cordial and can only post hateful and offensive comments then it is probably time for you to “be silent.” Be as strong or forceful you want, but leave the hate at the door.

3

Hey you are doing it backwards.

by donny in

"hey guy, aren't you doing things backwards in your spiritual life?".

this question or similar ones has been posed to me a few times over the years.

"most people i knew were agnostic when they were teens or young adults and then they become believers later on, but you seemed to have done it in reverse.".

donny

And it will take more than citing scripture and anecdotal stories for me to be convinced of something existing outside of what we can verify in the physical world.

3

Hey you are doing it backwards.

by donny in

"hey guy, aren't you doing things backwards in your spiritual life?".

this question or similar ones has been posed to me a few times over the years.

"most people i knew were agnostic when they were teens or young adults and then they become believers later on, but you seemed to have done it in reverse.".

donny

"Hey guy, aren't you doing things backwards in your spiritual life?"

This question or similar ones has been posed to me a few times over the years. This is usually followed more of less with something like the following. "Most people I knew were agnostic when they were teens or young adults and then they become believers later on, but you seemed to have done it in reverse."

What these people are missing is that probably all of these people they claimed were agnostic and/or atheist were really not al all. They probably identified as a believer but would acknowledge that they are backslidden in the faith or are currently living in sin. Then later on when they have families and responsibilities and the fun of "sin" has lost its initial appeal, they straighten up and look for a place of worship or a group to associate with.

I too was not a gun-ho religious guy during that early part of my adulthood, but I would have never claimed to be an unbeliever. I was simply enjoying my life without too much thought being given to things divine. Also I was one who loved science and verifying things for myself.

Of course that all changed when I met the girl who would become my future ex-wife. I was 23 years old and most of my partying friends were settling down so I decided to take a similar course. When I took the Watchtower plunge in Forth Worth, Texas in June 1983, I had become a different more serious person and unfortunately I let my habit of fact verification go dormant for a while.

After several years as a Jehovah's Witness I began looking up supporting data that the Watchtower Society provided in its publications, such as "Should You Believe in the Trinity?" or "Life; How Did it Get Here, By Evolution or Creation?" I was also verifying the translation oddities of the New World Translation against their own Kingdom Interlinear.

Instead of satisfying my questions it just led to more. Why was the Society using ellipsis (...) to eliminate data that contradicted whatever point they were trying to make? Why are they quoting a sentence that is taken completely of context? Why did their interlinear translation agree with "Christendom's" wording instead of Freddie's?

So began a quest to verify everything I had been taught regarding religion and spirituality for the past few years. Eventually that led me to say good-bye to the Watchtower and I spent the next several years checking out more "traditional" shades of Christianity. However this time I would not put my verification process to sleep as I had done earlier.

Although many of these other institutions and places of business had beliefs that were easier to digest, they all had many that I couldn't verify to my content. While nearly all of them had some kind of explanation to the barbarity and violence used by "God's people" to further their quest of lands promised to them, their answers often contradicted or nullified other things that has said.

Then I began a short query into a few non-Christian persuasions and found them just as wanting. And as I sat back and looked at the family, friends and other folk around me I began to realize that if I imagined a place without an Omnipotent being puppet master being charge, it would look amazing like this world.

People who claimed that God hear their prayers and reacts accordingly did not hold up under scrutiny. It did not matter to what God or entity was petitioned, the outcome was the same. Moreover, what I observed was that people who pray for something in particular will wait for when the time haa arrived or passed for the thing that was prayed for, they would look at the results and then say that God had done it. It would be like if people called me and left me a message on my answering machine asking for help or suggestions and then claiming I had reacted even though I had never checked the messages to begin with.

As I leaned more and more towards agnosticism, the world made much more sense. What was happening around me, both good and bad, was all due to the efforts and actions of men. Nothing I observed led me to believe anything supernatural was in control.

So by 2007 or so I finally realized that I was no longer a believer in anything non-corporeal. While I still have an open to correction or adjustments to my current way of thinking, it will take much more than quoting scripture or hearing some anecdotal story.

23

Is there anything about the JW's you still like?

by donny in

some jw's on various postingshave asked me was there anything about the jw's i still agree with.

of course there are some things i agree with and some i partially do.

1. political involvement - while i do not agree with totally avoiding anything associated with politics, i agree that many of todays churches are way too involved in trying to sway their constituents beliefs.

donny

Some JW's on various postingshave asked me was there anything about the JW's I still agree with. Of course there are some things I agree with and some I partially do.

1. Political Involvement - while I do not agree with totally avoiding anything associated with politics, I agree that many of todays churches are way too involved in trying to sway their constituents beliefs. After I left the JW's and attended "trad...itional" churches, I grew tired of the ones who kept telling me that if I didn't vote Republican I would be voting against God which is ridiculous.

2. Including the congregation in the discussion. Too many of the traditional churches have a "one-way" style at their services. You go in, hear the sermon and get up and leave. Getting the members to read scriptures or comment is a good way to see if the folks are understanding their beliefs.

3. Keeping the congregations size at a small level. Too many of todays popular churches are way, way too big. When you start talking thousands and thousands for a congregation, it smacks more of it being a big business than something to attend to ones spiritual needs. One ends up being just a face in the crowd.

4. Presenting the "good" and "bad" of the scriptures (especially the Old Testament). JW's generally do not avoid the discussion of the verses in the Bible where extremely harsh measures are doled out to those who for one reason or another do not find delight in Gods eye. After I left the Witnesses I attended many other churches and when I quizzed them on some of these issues, I was surprised how many did not even know anything about them despite their attending the same church for most of their lives. One pastor, who had used the illustration of Lots wife turning around to look behind her as an example of the punishment used for those who do not listen to God, was confused when I asked what he thought about Lot offering his daughters to the mob or them having sex with him later on. He said "I recall now those incidents but I don't talk about them often because it just creates more issues for me."

11

Why I became agnostic after leaving the Watchtower

by donny in

one of many things that led me to agnosticism after leaving the jw's was the cognitive dissonance i encountered with those in the mainstream churches, especially the really conservative ones.

these types would scream out in protest (rightly so) on all of the current atrocities going on in the world regarding islam and its radical extremists, but then justify the savage murders and slaughter perpetuated by israel in the old testament.. often i would take these passages and replace the names and places of these scriptures with current ones.

for example 1 samuel 15:3 reads "now go, attack the amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them.

donny

Marvin,

I agree with your political assessment. That is why I am now an independent. For the most part the parties are more alike than different. Greed and lust for power runs both

36

How many JWs really believe the end will come "soon"?

by BU2B in

jw
friends

this topic has been on my mind lately.

i have been looking around at jws and wondering how many truly believe the end is as near as they are told.

from my personal experience, i know that my parents fully believe the end is imminent and may come any time now.

donny

The few I interact with do not seem really concerned about it anymore. Yeah they still say "we're in the last days" and all of that tripe, but there does seem to be the urgency that once used to infect the organization. A man who works for me who is an active JW told me a while back, "well the end will come when it

11

Why I became agnostic after leaving the Watchtower

by donny in

one of many things that led me to agnosticism after leaving the jw's was the cognitive dissonance i encountered with those in the mainstream churches, especially the really conservative ones.

these types would scream out in protest (rightly so) on all of the current atrocities going on in the world regarding islam and its radical extremists, but then justify the savage murders and slaughter perpetuated by israel in the old testament.. often i would take these passages and replace the names and places of these scriptures with current ones.

for example 1 samuel 15:3 reads "now go, attack the amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them.

donny

One of many things that led me to agnosticism after leaving the JW's was the cognitive dissonance I encountered with those in the mainstream churches, especially the really conservative ones. These types would scream out in protest (rightly so) on all of the current atrocities going on in the world regarding Islam and its radical extremists, but then justify the savage murders and slaughter perpetuated by Israel in the Old Testament.

Often I would take these passages and replace the names and places of these scriptures with current ones. For example 1 Samuel 15:3 reads "Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

When I would post a statement like "Now go, attack the infidels and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys,’”
it was rightly declared to be hateful, evil and disgusting. But as soon as I told them it was a verse out of the Bible then the song and dance began of why it was not only the correct thing to do, but was sometimes told it was the only thing they should do.

When David and Saul returned from a battle they were met by folks chanting "Saul has killed his thousands and David his tens of thousands." Can you imagine people or a politician stating such a thing today and it being viewed as a positive thing? But again, the defenders will find a reason to put such repugnant behavior in a positive light.

Ever since the "sola scriptura" idea became popular a few hundred years ago and the "inerrancy of scripture" a few decades ago, it has created a group of people who will defend whatever terrible atrocity has occurred in its contents as long as the "good" folks were ones committing them.

Another, more recent interesting phenomenon, has cropped up since the American church has become bed partners with the Republican party. When I was a child in East Texas I used to remember how my grandparents and those of their generation used to criticize the Republicans because they were ungodly and lovers of money. It was a Republican president in office when with the stock market crash of 1929 occurred (Herbert Hoover).

Also an interesting note, it was the Democrats who were associated with war during the first part of the 1900's era. Woodrow Wilson (World War 1), Franklin Roosevelt (World War 2), Korean War (Harry Truman), Vietnam (Kennedy/Johnson). All but the last one were considered necessary and are generally viewed in a good light.

Then in the 1960's when what was the conservative political party of the majority of white church folks, the Democrats, a rebellion started when their party began taking up the mantle the Republicans started under Eisenhower in desegregating the schools. The vast majority of white southern Democrats were against this forced mingling with a people they considered to be inferior, and they rebelled. It was Alabama Democratic governor George Wallace who infamously stated ""segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever"

The Republicans being the clever and observant party they are, saw this huge group of people that were upset at their politicians and discovered the more they peppered their speeches with the word "God" and other Christian terms the more it appealed to them. This and the Democrats greedy attempt to be all things to all people backfired and within two decades millions who were once Democrat were now Republican.

This was an interesting marriage. A group of folks who adhered to one that spoke more about greed and the evils of excessive wealth to the party that fostered such behavior. Like the bible says "Bad associations, spoil useful habits" and this association was no exception. As the marriage grew tighter we saw the American church become less and less about the virtues of the simple life, humbleness and concern for the needy and downtrodden to one of wealth, arrogance and the need to keep folks agitated and in fear. I have heard some tell me that if Jesus were here today he would be a Republican, however it would not be the Jesus of the New Testament.

11 years ago, when I was still a Republican, I was invited to the home of a very wealthy person in San Jose. He and a few others present were great at telling folks what they wanted to hear. When he came to me for a few moments to chat, I told him that I was for the most part agnostic. His reply is one I will never forget. "Well so am I and most of the folks here. We just have to keep mentioning God and the like to keep the Dixie folks on board."

Since then I have become totally agnostic and a political independent. The ones running the Republican party could care less about God and country. They would abandon both in a New York minute if they had to choose between their riches and them.