Posts by sir82

37

convention freaky memories

by joelbear in

jw
friends

sucking on lifesavers to stay awake.

watching families eat meals during the session.

the smell.

sir82

At one convention when I was a teen (mid-70's), they had hamburgers for sale at lunchtime.

They cooked up the burgers, put them in buns, then wrapped them in aluminum foil. Then they put a couple hundred of these things in a big styrofoam chest.

By the time you got to the bottom layer of burgers in the chest, the last couple dozen were literally submerged in all the grease that had seeped out of the ones above them.

But, as I recall, people still requested burgers, and we just plucked them out, dried them off, and handed them over.

There were no burgers the following year.

210

Real 'BIG' news WTS sued biggie worker compensation

by DannyHaszard in

jehovah's loses comp case

church may be forced to pay millions

by jess wisloski.

sir82

The WT religious organization sells literature to the congregations, No?

No.

Since 1991 or 1992, in the US, the literature is on a "donation" arrangement. The congregation places an order, and the Society sends it out.

As a separate transaction, in theory at least, the congregation forwards voluntary donations it collects to the Society.

I have heard of some congregations which didn't contribute "enough" (apparently below some threshold known only to the Society), and the Society held back the literature until more $ was forthcoming. I have no idea if this comprises "sales" in a legal sense.

But in general, the literature has been "free" for something like 15 years.

210

Real 'BIG' news WTS sued biggie worker compensation

by DannyHaszard in

jehovah's loses comp case

church may be forced to pay millions

by jess wisloski.

sir82

The way I read this, manual workers for a religious order would be covered by WC. So, the religious order defense is not going to hold water here.

I hope I'm wrong, but I do see a big distinction.

Bethel workers are not manual workers for a religious order. They are the religious order. A requirement for entering Bethel is that they themselves take the oath and sign their names on the dotted line. The religious order has a special name, "The Special Order of Full-Time blah blah I forget the rest". 99.9% of JWs are not members of this religious order, but all full-time Bethel workers are.

They also happen to do manual labor. Kind of like monks who, in addition to praying & fasting or whatnot, also sweep the floors, tend the vegetable garden, and brew the world's finest beer (at least the ones in Belgium do).

59

What MUST Jw's believe that they don't KNOW they believe?

by AlmostAtheist in

jw
friends

i'm looking for beliefs of jw's that have the consequence of also requiring some other belief that they may not like or be able to explain.. for instance, you probably believe that there are an infinite number of numbers, since you can always add 1 to any number and make a new one.. what you may not think about as a consequence of that belief is that you can also start with 2, add 2, and create an infinite series of even numbers.

the set of even numbers is infinite, and the set of whole numbers (which would fully encompass the even numbers) is also infinite.

so which set is bigger?

sir82

But it has been demonstrated that time is physical property of the physical universe.

Where?

Einstein's Theory of Relativity, forget whether it is the Special or the General. Always get the 2 mixed up.

210

Real 'BIG' news WTS sued biggie worker compensation

by DannyHaszard in

jehovah's loses comp case

church may be forced to pay millions

by jess wisloski.

sir82

Who is not Covered?
Clergy and members of religious orders.

This has been their loophole so far.

Every single Bethel worker is a member of something called "The Special Order of Full Time Servants of Jehovah's Witnesses" or some such name, a legally-defined religious order. I even think there is some sort of "vow of poverty" and such. This has been in effect for a number of years, I don't recall how many

So, why did the judge in this case rule as he did? Surely the woman who sued was a memeber of that "Religious Order" at the time of the injury, right?

59

What MUST Jw's believe that they don't KNOW they believe?

by AlmostAtheist in

jw
friends

i'm looking for beliefs of jw's that have the consequence of also requiring some other belief that they may not like or be able to explain.. for instance, you probably believe that there are an infinite number of numbers, since you can always add 1 to any number and make a new one.. what you may not think about as a consequence of that belief is that you can also start with 2, add 2, and create an infinite series of even numbers.

the set of even numbers is infinite, and the set of whole numbers (which would fully encompass the even numbers) is also infinite.

so which set is bigger?

sir82

1) jesus was the first thing God created
2) Jezus helped God to create the universe
3) Time is a property of the universe
cosclusion: Jezus is created outside time, and he could not have been really dead (not existent for 3 days). He did not had a beginning, so was not cerated

Or, a twist on this one:

Jesus was the first thing God created, right? A "first" implies a "second", third", etc., i.e. a sequence of events traceable chronologically back to Jesus' creation. In other words, time began when Jesus was created.

But it has been demonstrated that time is physical property of the physical universe. It is not independent of the universe, it is an essential part of it. So, if time began at Jesus creation, that is equivalent to saying the physical universe began at Jesus' creation. The physical universe, i.e., the big bang, was created as a sort of "by-product" of Jesus' creation.

So how was it that Jesus was the "master worker" who designed the physical universe?

Hey, this is kind of fun!

210

Real 'BIG' news WTS sued biggie worker compensation

by DannyHaszard in

jehovah's loses comp case

church may be forced to pay millions

by jess wisloski.

sir82

Wow.

Think about the hundreds or thousands of construction workers who have worked at Bethel over the decades. Think of the dozens of them that must have been injured on the job over the years. Think of how many of them were told, "Son, maybe it's time for you to go back home and pioneer" when it became obvious they were no longer able to haul bricks due to injury.

If each of them is due back compensation to the tune of hundreds per week, that could be a seriously crippling blow. And it could affect ongoing operations as well.

This is one to keep tuned to, I think.

59

What MUST Jw's believe that they don't KNOW they believe?

by AlmostAtheist in

jw
friends

i'm looking for beliefs of jw's that have the consequence of also requiring some other belief that they may not like or be able to explain.. for instance, you probably believe that there are an infinite number of numbers, since you can always add 1 to any number and make a new one.. what you may not think about as a consequence of that belief is that you can also start with 2, add 2, and create an infinite series of even numbers.

the set of even numbers is infinite, and the set of whole numbers (which would fully encompass the even numbers) is also infinite.

so which set is bigger?

sir82

Ooooh, here's another good one I like:

JWs, in effect, believe in predestination!

The claim is that Jehovah knows everything, and can even foresee the future. This is how he has his 100% track record on prophecies (at least according to the JW doctrine).

So, you can ask, if Jehovah can foresee anything in the future, he already knew when he created Satan, that he would turn out bad? Jehovah knows, as of right now, if I will survive Armageddon? (Or pick your favorite question dealing with foreknowledge)

"No, no, no", says the JW. "Everyone has free will. Jehovah can see into the future, but he sometimes chooses not to, so as not to affect the choices we make."

Well, whether Jehovah chooses to see into the future or not, doesn't the fact that there is the future, not many futures, indicate that things are predestined? Whether Jehovah chooses to exercise his omniscience or not, the future is the future, the only one possible, right?

And if there are multiple possible futures, can it be said that Jehovah is really omniscient?

31

Hint of disillusionment among bethelites regarding downsizing?

by watch the tower in

here is an email i got from a jw friend regarding the downsizing.. can you sense the uneasiness in the last part of the message?.

"bros vandewall, jaracz, pierce and weaver gave a talk.

to the bethelites after the watchtower study monday.

sir82

Who was it that said, "either the org. will reform, or it will just get crazier & crazier"?

Here you have 1000+ of the org's best, the cream of the crop, Bethelites, pushed out into the street, with the expectation that they will all pioneer.

If you are a "good JW", your career aspirations are allowed to take one of 2 paths: be a lifetime pioneer or be a Bethelite.

So, there are thousands more "good JW" teens who now have practically no hope of entering Bethel. So, the big push will be to send them off pioneering.

Pioneer, pioneer, pioneer! All at a time when the preaching work has never been more ineffective or inefficient, and the Society resolutely refuses to update its methods from the 1940's.

I wonder if this is the beginning of a wave of disillusion, and an ever steeper decline in numbers?

59

What MUST Jw's believe that they don't KNOW they believe?

by AlmostAtheist in

jw
friends

i'm looking for beliefs of jw's that have the consequence of also requiring some other belief that they may not like or be able to explain.. for instance, you probably believe that there are an infinite number of numbers, since you can always add 1 to any number and make a new one.. what you may not think about as a consequence of that belief is that you can also start with 2, add 2, and create an infinite series of even numbers.

the set of even numbers is infinite, and the set of whole numbers (which would fully encompass the even numbers) is also infinite.

so which set is bigger?

sir82

To really bend a JW's mind, tell them that they really must believe in evolution.

The reasoning goes something like this:

There are literally millions of species of animals in the world today. There are thousands of species of just beetles, for example. Thinking of just the insect species alone, Noah's ark would have been just a big bug carrier, no room for elephants, tigers, etc.

"But the Reasoning Book says that Noah just took different kinds of animals into the ark. He took a pair of elephant kinds, tiger kinds, beetle kinds, etc."

Well and good, but if that is the case, then thousands of beetle species have evolved (adapted genetically, if you want to avoid the dread E word) from just one (or a few) pairs of beetles over the past 4300 years.

In fact, if a JW believes in the flood account literally, he believes in a form of evolution that progresses much faster than what most scientists believe in.