Posts by Caedes

40

WT is trying to scare off memorial partakers

by cookiemaster in

i don't know how many of you still participate in the sunday wt study, but i unfortunately still do.

even though i was asleep half of the time, i did notice something i thought i should share with the rest, in case you haven't noticed.

a lot of the paragraphs were worded strongly against partaking and used clear language of intimidation and discouragement toward anyone thinking of partaking.

Caedes

I think it's amusing when one group of people with an imaginary friend don't like what another group are doing because of the same (alleged) imaginary friend. It's almost as if the imaginary friend was entirely in each person's head.

102

A couple questions for atheists on Suffering

by little_Socrates in

who told you that the world should be free from suffering?.

do you find any value in suffering?.

do you think it is possible to experience all the beauty and goodness and pleasure the world offers without also experiencing the bad?

Caedes

I understand your pov Caedes that there is no divine plan and that things just happen, that the universe is oblivious to its effects. But disagree that things just happen when this is applied to suffering as I feel that suffering is always made and that unless we can appreciate how it is made we won't be able to address it, to lessen it, to understand how power is being used to keep people suffering.

How is a tsunami made? What power causes tsunamis? What about floods or ebola or earthquakes or cyclones? Those are not man made, nobody caused them. When the asteroid wiped out the dinosaurs that was before humans even existed. There are a whole range of things that happen that humans have no power over whatsoever. We do not control these things, the only thing we can do is mitigate against their effects.

And this, little_socrates, imo, is the value of owning and naming suffering and tracing its history and in doing so make it sublime if not beautiful - sublime as horror that needs to be witnessed to be overcome. (my emphasis)

Revelling in misery and suffering is not sublime or beautiful. It is both grotesque and absurd and showing a lack of empathy. But at least some respect is due for being willing to voice and back the awful and terrible beliefs that can be at the core of a faith in a creator god.

So I am disagreeing with you caedes on a very fundamental level in order to to show that there is the possiblity of dismissing suffering and by doing that allowing power that is very exploitive to go unchecked.

Good I am glad you disagree with me, I would hate to have something in common with someone who thinks that suffering is sublime or beautiful.

I think it is worth taking a moment to think through what your view would logically mean; after all if god is making people suffer it is for a good reason and who are you to interfere? Given that you believe that suffering is all part of god's plan then there isn't anything you can do to mitigate against that suffering is there? This kind of thinking is exactly what caused mother Teresa to have a charity with huge donations but not do anything with that money to help the people in her 'care'.

The famous quote from Stevn Weinberg seems very apt here "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

I note your points that follow and agree but still feel that I need to make the point above because I object strongly for the above reason and for the reason that you are putting God in the picture alongside engineering feats as God is often the vicitms of made (whether natural or man made) sufferings' only hope for change.

My point is that humanity does try to alleviate suffering, your god does nothing so I wouldn't put your god alongside the smallest of human achievements in this area.

edit: I think all our political leaders are aware of this so I won't say only Ed Milliband is although I'd like to - at the moment anyway

I'm unclear what Ed Milliband has to do with the topic, but at least he wants to try and do something to help his fellows, I would say the same about most UK political leaders apart from Farage of course (he would sell his granny if it helped him up the slippery pole).

Cantleave that pic has an interesting history that imo illustrates the point I am trying to make.

I think we all know how seriously to take your opinion now. The opinion you are sharing is sickening, despicable, lacking in empathy and is utterly beneath contempt.

754

Theists, why does God allow suffering..

by The Quiet One in

..specifically, the suffering of animals.

you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.

i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.

Caedes

Because the bible states that your god created it obviously. Your god purposely designed it that way.

20

Skills Gap

by M*A*S*H in

the jws have now been discouraging higher education and critical thinking for a long time.

we have all seen the 'dumbing down' of the wt literature.

on a personal level i have seen many of the perceivably intelligent younger members of congregations leave.

Caedes

This is why I get concerned by a ever increasing pervasive idea taught and practised in schools, the press and increasingly in the work place - the idea of 'respect'. I do have a big problem when we are asked to 'show respect' for ideas or philosophies that do not deserve it. IMHO it's important that the TTATT especially not be tainted by the faux respect we are all asked to show.

That is an interesting point, I have always thought that respect is earned not given as the saying goes. I think having to earn respect is what makes it worthwhile. If it is just given; especially as a matter of course; then it really has no value at all.

59

Asshole Atheism – Not for me, now or ever.

by donny in

to start off with let me clarify that by asshole atheism i am not referring to strong atheism or any other type of upfront atheism.

what i am referring to is the belligerent, hateful atheism that smacks of trolls and other types who want to derail conversation or comments at any cost..

i enjoy hearing comments from both sides of the subjects of theism, nationalism or politics, especially from those who have intense opinions.

Caedes

Judging from friends and family, people who claim to have interest in Science , never really seem to have much of an interest in science outside of finding reasons to argue with religious people. It seems to more of a liberal arts thing, disguising itself in the guise of higher learning.

I have a few doctors and engineers in the family and they could care less about the origins of the species. It always seems to be the political science major that figures they have all the mysteries of the planet figured out.

Well perhaps you should try widening your circle of friends to people who might actually have a different opinion to you. By the way I am an engineer and I am hugely interested in evolution and indeed any and all science.

59

Asshole Atheism – Not for me, now or ever.

by donny in

to start off with let me clarify that by asshole atheism i am not referring to strong atheism or any other type of upfront atheism.

what i am referring to is the belligerent, hateful atheism that smacks of trolls and other types who want to derail conversation or comments at any cost..

i enjoy hearing comments from both sides of the subjects of theism, nationalism or politics, especially from those who have intense opinions.

Caedes

When asked if I am an atheist, my response is that I am not one of the "cool kids" and thus do not subscribe to their asshole theories.

I just wish people would realize there is an entire industry pretending to be promoting the cause “ Science “ which is just anti-christian rubbish. They are just selling books and taking your money so you can feel you have a smug sense of moral superiority . If anyone I thought could see though this bullshit if should be ex-witnesses.

What I am referring to is the belligerent, hateful atheism that smacks of trolls and other types who want to derail conversation or comments at any cost.

So in a thread about what arseholes atheists are, we have been called arseholes by three different posters who presumably don't count themselves as atheists and zero theists have been called names. I see how that works.

Edit. I spoke too soon! lol

102

A couple questions for atheists on Suffering

by little_Socrates in

who told you that the world should be free from suffering?.

do you find any value in suffering?.

do you think it is possible to experience all the beauty and goodness and pleasure the world offers without also experiencing the bad?

Caedes

LS,

Who told you that the world should be free from suffering?

As an empathic human being I wish that it were. As an atheist I know that there is no divine plan and that things just happen, the universe is oblivious to it's effects on us. If an asteroid hit the earth tomorrow and wiped out all life it did not do that on purpose we were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. If I believed in a biblical creator god then that asteroid has to be part of his divine plan and hence the suffering was caused by god.

Do you find any value in suffering?

No, that is not to say that people don't overcome all manner of adversity and emerge stronger. In spite of this it is not something I would inflict on anyone or anything by choice.

Do you think it is possible to experience all the beauty and goodness and pleasure the world offers without also experiencing the bad? Isn't good only good because we know what bad is? If there was only good would it really be "good"?

That is a good question but you really need to define what you mean. Firstly, I would differentiate between the 'bad' that is part of nature and 'bad' that is a result of unnecessary human activity. Could we eliminate human evil and still know what good and bad was? Probably yes, the vast majority of humans do not commit acts of evil, not because of god or hell but because of empathy. Could we stop natural disasters and still know good from bad? Yes, we do it all the time, If you don't live on a hill and are not knee deep in water twice a year it's probably because we have flood prevention engineers mitigating that natural disaster.

If you where God and could eliminate suffering what would the world look like? Or conversely if there was a loving God what should we expect the world to look like?

Much like it does now but without all the natural disasters, starvation and psychopaths and much more empathy for humans. If there were an omnibenevolent god then that would be the only sort of world it could design!

754

Theists, why does God allow suffering..

by The Quiet One in

..specifically, the suffering of animals.

you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.

i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.

Caedes

Fisherman,

What I mean to say is that the president of the USA or any other sovereign ruler or government entity can define what is good and what is bad not you. The definition of good or bad can mean that he can drop a nuclear bomb destroying animals and people and whatever he wants.

By that definition every despot and tyrant in history is allowed to define that their actions are 'good', that is an astonishingly low bar for your god to reach. Mind you considering the moral turpitude of your god it will be in good company.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history

So which one of the genocides listed do you think was the most benevolent? The holocaust? The killing fields of Cambodia perhaps the Srebrenica genocide.

17

Jehovahs Witness Shunning & the Crusades

by freemindfade in

while discussing being mistreated by my own jw family last night with my wife, i wanted to try to make her think critically about what shunning really is, and at its root what how beneficial it is.

earlier in the day i sent her non-apostate scholarly article on religious shunning being tantamount to psychological torture.

and most witnesses don't think into much about why they do things, its more of a "this is the way we do it, don't over think it" process.

Caedes

You could use this when a JW knocks on your door. Act interested at first and then 'explain' that you can't join the JWs as your current religion has a shunning policy for anyone who leaves and you don't want to lose friends and family.

754

Theists, why does God allow suffering..

by The Quiet One in

..specifically, the suffering of animals.

you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.

i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.

Caedes

I recognized it immediately, Caedes. It's the most basic form of the slope-intercept equation for line equations. son just recently worked on that in school and I helped him with it, hence I've seen it a lot recently. Not sure what it's doing in this thread, however.

Viviane,

I recognised it too, I was hoping that by defining the parameters that it might become clearer what relevance it had to the thread or if it even had some relevance to the post in question. It certainly wasn't obvious to me what It had to do with human growth hormones. I am not an expert on biochemistry but I doubt that any correlation in that field is strictly linear. Perhaps whenindoubt can return and explain it?