Posts by Caedes

102

A couple questions for atheists on Suffering

by little_Socrates in

who told you that the world should be free from suffering?.

do you find any value in suffering?.

do you think it is possible to experience all the beauty and goodness and pleasure the world offers without also experiencing the bad?

Caedes

You think that suffering is something to laugh about? You illustrate my point about your lack of empathy rather succinctly.

754

Theists, why does God allow suffering..

by The Quiet One in

..specifically, the suffering of animals.

you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.

i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.

Caedes

I was hoping you would realise my reply was not really aimed at you!

19

Great article about intelligent design in science without being religious

by EndofMysteries in

for those who think that belief or the possibility of intelligent design means you must accept or believe everything or anything you have heard about god or a god is incorrect.

i'll quote one line from the article, " but intelligent design, unlike creationism, is not based upon the bible.

design is an inference from biological data, not a deduction from religious authority.

Caedes

Show me something published in a mainstream scientific journal and I will happily read it. This is just opinion not science. Even Behe himself had to admit that when challenged in court.

754

Theists, why does God allow suffering..

by The Quiet One in

..specifically, the suffering of animals.

you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.

i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.

Caedes

I'm curious, what type of engineering scale do you carry in your pocket for when you need to measure how much money you have?

You get one issued to you upon graduation!

I am confused as to why anyone would use a scale, it doesn't even make sense if you were trying to claim that you were measuring the thickness of a wad of notes, since paper is compressible and it wouldn't be able to differentiate between different values of notes. thus this method wouldn't be much good as a way of counting money.

A scale rule is used (in olden times when everything was in black and white) as a way of producing and reading scale drawings (altering the size of an object so that it fits the size of the paper) so the increments are scaled to save you calculating the length each time.

Of course nowadays (anytime in the last 30+ years) we model everything in 3D at full size and if you need a drawing the computer automatically scales the drawing to whatever you think is appropriate.

Anyone who still uses a scale rule probably missed the start of the computer age.

754

Theists, why does God allow suffering..

by The Quiet One in

..specifically, the suffering of animals.

you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.

i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.

Caedes

I was also fishing for anyone who has ever written a lab report above the grade 12, who I thought would "almost immediately" recognize these terms and could understand what I meant.

I am a senior engineer with a large engineering firm and have written countless reports, the first thing you learn is that the executive summary should be written so that anyone can understand it. I am afraid your meaning is no more clear to me than anyone else in this thread. Your Yoda like grasp of grammar denies anyone the chance of understanding anything you write, word salad is less enlightening than just writing what you mean clearly.

Of course if your aim is to obfuscate rather than illuminate then congratulations, you have succeeded.

40

WT is trying to scare off memorial partakers

by cookiemaster in

i don't know how many of you still participate in the sunday wt study, but i unfortunately still do.

even though i was asleep half of the time, i did notice something i thought i should share with the rest, in case you haven't noticed.

a lot of the paragraphs were worded strongly against partaking and used clear language of intimidation and discouragement toward anyone thinking of partaking.

Caedes

I think it's amusing when one group of people with an imaginary friend don't like what another group are doing because of the same (alleged) imaginary friend. It's almost as if the imaginary friend was entirely in each person's head.

102

A couple questions for atheists on Suffering

by little_Socrates in

who told you that the world should be free from suffering?.

do you find any value in suffering?.

do you think it is possible to experience all the beauty and goodness and pleasure the world offers without also experiencing the bad?

Caedes

I understand your pov Caedes that there is no divine plan and that things just happen, that the universe is oblivious to its effects. But disagree that things just happen when this is applied to suffering as I feel that suffering is always made and that unless we can appreciate how it is made we won't be able to address it, to lessen it, to understand how power is being used to keep people suffering.

How is a tsunami made? What power causes tsunamis? What about floods or ebola or earthquakes or cyclones? Those are not man made, nobody caused them. When the asteroid wiped out the dinosaurs that was before humans even existed. There are a whole range of things that happen that humans have no power over whatsoever. We do not control these things, the only thing we can do is mitigate against their effects.

And this, little_socrates, imo, is the value of owning and naming suffering and tracing its history and in doing so make it sublime if not beautiful - sublime as horror that needs to be witnessed to be overcome. (my emphasis)

Revelling in misery and suffering is not sublime or beautiful. It is both grotesque and absurd and showing a lack of empathy. But at least some respect is due for being willing to voice and back the awful and terrible beliefs that can be at the core of a faith in a creator god.

So I am disagreeing with you caedes on a very fundamental level in order to to show that there is the possiblity of dismissing suffering and by doing that allowing power that is very exploitive to go unchecked.

Good I am glad you disagree with me, I would hate to have something in common with someone who thinks that suffering is sublime or beautiful.

I think it is worth taking a moment to think through what your view would logically mean; after all if god is making people suffer it is for a good reason and who are you to interfere? Given that you believe that suffering is all part of god's plan then there isn't anything you can do to mitigate against that suffering is there? This kind of thinking is exactly what caused mother Teresa to have a charity with huge donations but not do anything with that money to help the people in her 'care'.

The famous quote from Stevn Weinberg seems very apt here "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

I note your points that follow and agree but still feel that I need to make the point above because I object strongly for the above reason and for the reason that you are putting God in the picture alongside engineering feats as God is often the vicitms of made (whether natural or man made) sufferings' only hope for change.

My point is that humanity does try to alleviate suffering, your god does nothing so I wouldn't put your god alongside the smallest of human achievements in this area.

edit: I think all our political leaders are aware of this so I won't say only Ed Milliband is although I'd like to - at the moment anyway

I'm unclear what Ed Milliband has to do with the topic, but at least he wants to try and do something to help his fellows, I would say the same about most UK political leaders apart from Farage of course (he would sell his granny if it helped him up the slippery pole).

Cantleave that pic has an interesting history that imo illustrates the point I am trying to make.

I think we all know how seriously to take your opinion now. The opinion you are sharing is sickening, despicable, lacking in empathy and is utterly beneath contempt.

754

Theists, why does God allow suffering..

by The Quiet One in

..specifically, the suffering of animals.

you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.

i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.

Caedes

Because the bible states that your god created it obviously. Your god purposely designed it that way.

20

Skills Gap

by M*A*S*H in

the jws have now been discouraging higher education and critical thinking for a long time.

we have all seen the 'dumbing down' of the wt literature.

on a personal level i have seen many of the perceivably intelligent younger members of congregations leave.

Caedes

This is why I get concerned by a ever increasing pervasive idea taught and practised in schools, the press and increasingly in the work place - the idea of 'respect'. I do have a big problem when we are asked to 'show respect' for ideas or philosophies that do not deserve it. IMHO it's important that the TTATT especially not be tainted by the faux respect we are all asked to show.

That is an interesting point, I have always thought that respect is earned not given as the saying goes. I think having to earn respect is what makes it worthwhile. If it is just given; especially as a matter of course; then it really has no value at all.

59

Asshole Atheism – Not for me, now or ever.

by donny in

to start off with let me clarify that by asshole atheism i am not referring to strong atheism or any other type of upfront atheism.

what i am referring to is the belligerent, hateful atheism that smacks of trolls and other types who want to derail conversation or comments at any cost..

i enjoy hearing comments from both sides of the subjects of theism, nationalism or politics, especially from those who have intense opinions.

Caedes

Judging from friends and family, people who claim to have interest in Science , never really seem to have much of an interest in science outside of finding reasons to argue with religious people. It seems to more of a liberal arts thing, disguising itself in the guise of higher learning.

I have a few doctors and engineers in the family and they could care less about the origins of the species. It always seems to be the political science major that figures they have all the mysteries of the planet figured out.

Well perhaps you should try widening your circle of friends to people who might actually have a different opinion to you. By the way I am an engineer and I am hugely interested in evolution and indeed any and all science.