Posts by ThomasCovenant

Nine hundred Christians

by ThomasCovenant in

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/nine-hundred-christians-make-slight-change-to-their-delusion-201104213745/.

ThomasCovenant

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/nine-hundred-christians-make-slight-change-to-their-delusion-201104213745/

63

How Many of Them Do You Know About?

by clarity in

after flipper's thread about the wt child abuse cases, i started to think about how many children i know of personally who have been sexually abused by a jw!.

as someone who is not especially 'in the know', it's amazing that i do know five of them.

one who was a small baby, at the time!.

ThomasCovenant

30 + years in and no knowledge or experience of any child abuse in any congregation I was in.

15

Memorial PT Outline reflecting new songbook ....(pdf available)

by yknot in

suicide and wts funeral rules

by diamondiiz in

i just found out that a husband of an old friend committed a suicide and i was wondering if there are any letters to elders or any wts rules concerning funerals for those who committed suicide.

i've looked in the elders book and letters to boe index and didn't find anything.

some posts here say they can have the funeral at the kh and some here said they couldn't hold it there because suicide was involved.

ThomasCovenant

WT 15th June 2002

Questions From Readers

If someone commits suicide, would it be advisable for a Christian minister to give the funeral talk?

Each Christian minister would have to decide for himself whether he in good conscience could conduct a funeral for someone who seems to have committed suicide. When making the decision, he should consider the following questions: How does Jehovah view suicide? Was the death really a self-inflicted murder? Did a mental or emotional disorder trigger the suicide? How is suicide viewed in the locality?

As Christians, we are interested in how Jehovah views suicide. To Jehovah human life is precious and sacred. (Genesis 9:5; Psalm 36:9) The intentional killing of oneself is self-murder, and it is therefore displeasing in God's eyes. (Exodus 20:13; 1 John 3:15) Does that fact preclude the giving of a funeral talk for a suicide victim?

Consider the case of King Saul of Israel. When he realized that he would not survive his final battle against the Philistines, rather than letting his enemy treat him abusively, "Saul took the sword and fell upon it." When the Philistines found his corpse, they fastened it on the wall of the city of Beth-shan. Upon finding out what the Philistines had done, the inhabitants of Jabesh-gilead removed the corpse and burned it. Then they took his bones and buried them. They even fasted for seven days, a traditional mourning rite among the Israelites. (1 Samuel 31:4, 8-13; Genesis 50:10)

When David, the anointed of Jehovah, found out what the inhabitants of Jabesh-gilead had done, he said: "Blessed may you be of Jehovah, because you exercised this loving-kindness toward your lord, toward Saul, in that you buried him. And now may Jehovah exercise toward you loving-kindness and trustworthiness." (2 Samuel 2:5, 6) The divine record does not indicate that the inhabitants of Jabesh-gilead were condemned for performing what may be considered a funeral rite for King Saul. Compare that with the case of those who were deprived of burial because of their wrongdoing. (Jeremiah 25:32, 33) A Christian minister may consider the account about Saul in deciding whether he can give a funeral talk for a suicide victim.

The minister may also want to consider the purpose of a funeral service. Unlike people who believe in the immortality of the soul, Jehovah's Witnesses do not perform funerals with the erroneous idea of sending the deceased off to another world. Rather than to benefit the deceased, the main purpose of having a memorial service is to comfort the bereaved and to give a witness concerning the condition of the dead to those who attend. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10; 2 Corinthians 1:3-5) Another important reason for having a funeral is to help all in attendance to reflect on the transitoriness of life. (Ecclesiastes 7:2) Will these purposes be served by performing the memorial service for the suicide victim?

Granted, some may feel that the person took his life intentionally, fully aware that he was sinning against Jehovah. But is there always a way to substantiate such a feeling? Could it have been a spur-of-the-moment act? Some who attempt suicide feel regret and do not go through with it. A person cannot after death repent for what he has done.

Another important factor is that of mental and emotional disorders that are involved in many suicides. These can really be called suicide victims. According to some statistics, 90 percent of those who commit suicide have some kind of mental, emotional, or addictive problem. Will Jehovah forgive the self-murder committed by people in such a mental state? We are not in a position to judge whether the deceased committed an unforgivable sin in the eyes of Jehovah. A Christian minister may take into account the circumstances and medical history of the deceased when he considers whether to perform a funeral service for the suicide victim.

There is one more aspect to consider: How do people in the community view suicide and the death of the person? This is especially of concern to the elders, who are interested in the reputation of the local congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses. Depending on the general attitude toward suicide in the locality, and particularly toward the case involved, the elders may prefer not to sponsor such a funeral publicly or to have it in the Kingdom Hall.

Still, if a Christian minister is asked to preside at the funeral, he may feel that on a private basis, he can do so. If he decides to do so, he should be discreet in not making any firm statements about whether a resurrection might be possible. Any future prospect for the dead is in the hands of Jehovah, and no one is in a position to say whether the deceased will be resurrected or not. The minister can concentrate on the Bible truths about death and offer comfort for the bereaved.

22

suicide and wts funeral rules

by diamondiiz in

i just found out that a husband of an old friend committed a suicide and i was wondering if there are any letters to elders or any wts rules concerning funerals for those who committed suicide.

i've looked in the elders book and letters to boe index and didn't find anything.

some posts here say they can have the funeral at the kh and some here said they couldn't hold it there because suicide was involved.

ThomasCovenant

WT 15th July 1975

Questions From Readers
? What viewpoint does God's Word indicate that Christians should have toward suicide?

Jehovah as the source of life has decreed that human life is precious, sacred. (Gen. 9:5; Ps. 36:9) Hence, suicide, which means the taking of one's own life, or killing oneself, is condemned by the Bible. Such intentional act is self-murder. (Ex. 20:13; 1 John 3:15) The few suicides mentioned in the Bible are of those who were unfaithful to Jehovah and who failed to consider that their lives really belonged to God.-1 Sam. 31:4; 2 Sam. 17:5-14, 23; 1 Ki. 16:18; Matt. 27:5.

One who intentionally takes his own life does so in utter disregard for the sacredness of life; he becomes bloodguilty. When one commits suicide while in possession of one's mental faculties, this shows one to be void of morality, lacking faith, having no fear of God. It is a cowardly act, where one refuses to face up to the problems and responsibilities of life. If the person claimed to be a true Christian, the act would violently break his relationship with Jehovah. Suicide may be the giving in to pressures from demons who encourage self-destruction. (Matt. 17:14-18) This extremely self-centered act of murder manifests no love for one's surviving family members, no love for one's congregation and friends, and no love even for the surrounding community, as it brings shame and distress of mind upon all associates.-Mark 12:31.

In most countries it must be a public officer, sometimes called a coroner, who officially reports the cause of death. While a report of suicide may be submitted by the officer, yet it may not be in harmony with the facts. For example, in one such report of suicide, three weeks later clear evidence came to light that the death was due to a freak accident. So, circumstances must always be taken into consideration. Was there mental illness involved? Was the person in his right mind? Was he culpable or blameworthy? In many instances it is difficult to get to know all the facts.
What, then, should be the attitude of members of a Christian congregation as to attending funerals of reported suicides who may have been associated with the congregation? What about an elder who has received a request to conduct such a funeral? Where death appears to have been accidental, even though it was reported as a suicide or may have involved mental illness, the consciences of some members of the congregation may permit them to attend the funeral to comfort the bereaved ones. Also, it is left up to the personal decision of an elder whether he will conduct such a funeral upon request. However, the congregation may prefer not to sponsor such a funeral publicly or to have it in the Kingdom Hall because of the effect it may have on the uninformed community.

On the other hand, where it is a clearly established suicide, members of the congregation and elders may desire not to become involved in the funeral. In such cases arrangements would be left to the family itself for a private funeral where some member of the household might say a few words for the sake of the relatives. Furthermore, some may not desire to attend a funeral of one who is believed to have committed suicide where the funeral is conducted by someone other than a member of the congregation or by the funeral director himself at the request of the family.
As lovers of righteousness we leave the matter in the hands of a merciful, all-wise God as to any possible future for some of those driven to suicide. We who are lovers of life, holding every day of life sacred, endeavor to conduct our daily affairs and associations in a way that will merit the approval of the One who gave life to humankind.

22

suicide and wts funeral rules

by diamondiiz in

i just found out that a husband of an old friend committed a suicide and i was wondering if there are any letters to elders or any wts rules concerning funerals for those who committed suicide.

i've looked in the elders book and letters to boe index and didn't find anything.

some posts here say they can have the funeral at the kh and some here said they couldn't hold it there because suicide was involved.

ThomasCovenant

Having never been associated with the truth, the suicide was ignorant and became guilty of a crime that many other persons have become guilty of in ignorance, even to the committing of murder of another person.

His standing depends upon whether he is susceptible to the ransom sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. Jehovah decides from reading the suicide's heart whether he is still susceptible to the provision of the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ and whether he will be called out of the memorial tomb by the reigning King, Jesus Christ.

He may have an opportunity for life in the new world.

So nothing definite may be stated at the funeral in the way of a promise concerning the future life of the suicide. Just the same, an effective witness can be given to all those who gather together for the funeral service, the people who knew the suicide.

The principles of Christian truth can be stated, and whatever comfort the bereaved ones may take from the statement of Christian principles as affecting even the suicide they may do so after hearing the funeral sermon

22

suicide and wts funeral rules

by diamondiiz in

i just found out that a husband of an old friend committed a suicide and i was wondering if there are any letters to elders or any wts rules concerning funerals for those who committed suicide.

i've looked in the elders book and letters to boe index and didn't find anything.

some posts here say they can have the funeral at the kh and some here said they couldn't hold it there because suicide was involved.

ThomasCovenant

Don't know if these answer your query:

WT 15th July 1959

? Is it proper for a brother to conduct the funeral service of an individual who was never associated with Jehovah's witnesses and who committed suicide?-K. L., U.S.A.

This all depends on the conscientious attitude of the brother in the truth who may be requested to perform the funeral service. If his conscience revolts against the thought because of self-murder, then he should not violate his conscience by performing the ceremony. If another capable brother feels that he can conscientiously do so, there is no objection to his doing so. Whereas he cannot preach the suicide into heaven or even hold forth Scriptural promises that the suicide will have an opportunity for life in the new world, and although he does not condone the suicide, yet he appreciates that the holding of a funeral service affords a marvelous opportunity to give a witness to God's kingdom and the blessings that it will bring to mankind, including the resurrection of the dead.

26

Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 04-03-2011 WT Study (TRIAL)

by blondie in

jw
friends

face persecution?.

helped to resist peer pressure.

(a) why can we expect to face trials and.

ThomasCovenant

Thank you Blondie once again.

para 16 Roxana

''she reflected on the
fact that God had provided for her spiritually
at the convention, so he could surely also
provide for her physically''

Sounds a bit of a cheek really. Yes I've been to the assembly so now provide me with a job.

Reminds me of Alan Partridge asking for another TV series from the Chief Commissioning Editor of the BBC .

''Give me another series you shit''

I watched Louis Theroux's revisit to the Westboro Baptist Church on BBC2 last night and now I'm convinced they must be the true religion because Jesus said his followers would be objects of hatred because of him and I sure do hate them.

25

Westboro Church Update on BBC

by cofty in

right now there is a documentary on the bbc about louis theroux' second visit to the infamous phelps family.

it's a follow up to a similar documentary four years ago.. a considerable number of members have left in the last few years while the cult has become even more extreme.

louis has just interviewed young woman who has got out and started nursing.

ThomasCovenant

Watched it last night, and the first visit Louis Theroux did a few years back. I cannot understand how no one has made any successful attempt at a firebombing or at least a drive by shooting. Maybe the US is more peaceful than Hollywood teaches us.

Somehow I don't think they would have been as successful if the grandaddy leader Phelps had set up shop in 1970's Northern Ireland. A quick knee capping may have tempererd his aggression.

As Cofty says though, they are similar to JW's in their belief that everyone else is going to die except them, but no longer have the balls to say it as it is.

Unfortunately, I consider that when all is said and done ALL religious people on this planet are basically the same as Westboro Baptist Church.

''We are right, everyone else is wrong. And thank God, Yahweh, Allah that Hell will prove us right.''

The nicer religious people add

''We'd love for you to join us: (but if you don't, you're toast).''

65

Hi, new to this forum. Figured I'd let everyone know about my story before I got involved.

by JonathanH in

if you just want the juicy details where i leave, i'll make disclaimer where it begins, if you just want to know what happened with the elders and organization after i realized it wasn't true, i'll mark that seperately.

we didn't do jack shit in service, or in the congregation.

maybe this was how jehovah came about?

ThomasCovenant

Thank you for taking the time to write that 'introduction'. It was good to read.

And welcome.

All the best with your wife too.