West70

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Posts by West70

• 
  87

  To: Barbara Anderson -- Re: First WatchTower President

  by West70 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i am primarily posting this to barbara anderson, but obviously everyone is welcome to correct or comment on my remarks as they see fit.

  mrs. anderson, i realize that trying to cover all bases in your pending russell bio would be impossible, but i do hope that you will be able to include a section on the first president of the watch tower society, william h. conley.

  i hope that you have had a chance to research conley with some degree of thoroughness, so as to dispel some of the half-truths that some bible students and jws try to promote (such as that conley's age and health caused his inactivity with russell after 1881).

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  West70

  Thanks Leolaia. Your scan is fine. The problem is my vision.
• 
  87

  To: Barbara Anderson -- Re: First WatchTower President

  by West70 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i am primarily posting this to barbara anderson, but obviously everyone is welcome to correct or comment on my remarks as they see fit.

  mrs. anderson, i realize that trying to cover all bases in your pending russell bio would be impossible, but i do hope that you will be able to include a section on the first president of the watch tower society, william h. conley.

  i hope that you have had a chance to research conley with some degree of thoroughness, so as to dispel some of the half-truths that some bible students and jws try to promote (such as that conley's age and health caused his inactivity with russell after 1881).

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  West70

  Thanks SF for your contribution. There hopefully might be more info that can be found already posted on the net.
  
  I would simply note that it is my understanding that Conley lived in Allegheny from the 1850/60s until his death in 1897.
  
  One issue that I forgot above is whether this Conley is the same Conley to whom George Peters dedicates one of his Theocratic Kingdom volumes? If so, those circumstances might be a gold mine given Conley's status as FIRST WATCHTOWER PRESIDENT.
  
  
  Thanks, Leolaia for your contribution. Can you provide a summary of the scanned info? I can't see it. Thanks.
  
  Also, can a Moderator move this topic to an appropriate "category". I'll eventually learn. Thanks.
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  25

  WBTS Loses Recent 2005 Federal District Court Case In Puerto Rico

  by West70 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  has this 2005 federal court decision been previously posted?

  jehovah's witnesses lose facial challenge to puerto rico controlled access law .

  in an opinion that has recently become available, the federal district court in puerto rico last month rejected a facial constitutional attack by jehovah's witnesses to the commonwealth's controlled access law.

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  West70

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• 
  87

  To: Barbara Anderson -- Re: First WatchTower President

  by West70 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i am primarily posting this to barbara anderson, but obviously everyone is welcome to correct or comment on my remarks as they see fit.

  mrs. anderson, i realize that trying to cover all bases in your pending russell bio would be impossible, but i do hope that you will be able to include a section on the first president of the watch tower society, william h. conley.

  i hope that you have had a chance to research conley with some degree of thoroughness, so as to dispel some of the half-truths that some bible students and jws try to promote (such as that conley's age and health caused his inactivity with russell after 1881).

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  West70

  I am primarily posting this to Barbara Anderson, but obviously everyone is welcome to correct or comment on my remarks as they see fit.
  
  Mrs. Anderson, I realize that trying to cover all bases in your pending Russell Bio would be impossible, but I do hope that you will be able to include a section on the first President of the Watch Tower Society, William H. Conley.
  
  I hope that you have had a chance to research Conley with some degree of thoroughness, so as to dispel some of the half-truths that some Bible Students and JWs try to promote (such as that Conley's age and health caused his inactivity with Russell after 1881).
  
  Although my understanding may be no better than it was regarding the age of Rose Ball, I will relate some things I understand regarding Conley, and you can correct or comment on such as you see fit. I do so mainly to encourage your research on any aspect that you may have overlooked.
  
  It is my understanding that Conley and his wife were 2 of the 5 original members of Russell's inner circle, along with Joseph and Margaret Russell.
  
  Two notices in ZWT Magazine indicate that the "Memorial" was held at the Conley's home in 1880/1. It would seem logical that the regular meetings of the Allegheny/Pitt area associates were probably also held at the Conley's home.
  
  Conley became the first President of the Watch Tower Society when it was legally formed as an "association" entity in 1881. However, by the time that growth considerations required "incorporation" in 1884, Conley seems to have disappeared, EXCEPT for the fact that WT meetings moved at some point from Conley's home to the Grand Army of the Republic Hall, which was located in an upper story of the Third National Bank of Allegheny building. Conley was a Director of this Bank, and I believe at some point was also listed as its President.
  
  Conley was one of the two partners in Riter & Conley, which was a prosperous metal fabrication business, which served the drilling, mining, manufacturing, and marine, and other industries. Conley is listed as the "bookkeeper" for the original Riter operation, but when Riter#1 died, Riter's brother and Conley continued the business as partners in 1873 until Conley's death in 1897. Like his brother, Riter ran the engineering end of the business, while Conley likely was the "business mind" who ran the business ($$$, etc.) end of the company. Line drawings of the two 1870s buildings are posted on the net. Most net info relates to Riter-Conley Mfg Inc which was the corporation which Riter formed in 1898 after Conley's death. I can't locate any info as to just how prosperous the business was from 1873 to 1897, but there is one brief mention of R&C building 2 metal boats for use in South America in 1875 (when wood was still common). Given the success recorded for R&C post-Conley (I believe there is one reference to over 1000 employees in the early 1900s), I woud guess that even back in the 1870s that R&C made the Russell chain of 5 haberdasheries look like small potatoes; with Conley being much more wealthy than the Russells.
  
  Russell printed a letter from Conley in a 1894 ZWT. Russell re-introduces Conley to his 1894 readers as merely one of the original Allegheny bible students. It is unbelievable that Russell does NOT disclose that Conley was the Society's first President.
  
  When Conley dies in 1897, there is no mention of that fact in ZWT. However, John H. Paton publishes such in his own competing magazine, and even mentions that he has stayed at the Conley home numerous times "over the past 20 years".
  Although Conley denies that he believes one of Paton's primary teachings in the 1894 ZWT letter, he apparently remained closer to Paton (who lived in Michigan) than he did with Russell in Allegheny.
  
  It is my speculation that Conley became disillusioned with Russell quickly after 1881. First, Russell's predictions for the Rapture in 1878 and then 1881 had failed. But, more importantly, there were the two large literature distributions in 1881/2. I don't recall from memory the exact unit count, but I believe it may have been over 1,000,000 pieces. That was BIG BUCKS even back then. I speculate that Conley may have put up half or more of the cost. With little if any results, the "businessman" Conley likely began to have second thoughts about Russell and his message.
  
  While Conley was an "Advent Christian", the fact that he was so active in business in 1873 would seem to indicate that he was NOT one of the "timist", "time brethren", or "date-setting" Advent Christians, who jumped onto Nelson Barbour and Jonas Wendell's 1873 boat, as the "time brethren" ACCs had done multiple times between 1843/4 and 1873. Nelson Barbour was the last of the "date-setting" ACCs, unless you acknowledge the FACT that Russell's Watchtower movement was what it was; an ACC offshoot, which was the sole continuance of the ACC time brethren's date setting.
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  7

  Gilead Missionary Eulogizes JW Deputy Sheriff

  by West70 in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  just how "jw" was this deputy sheriff?

  obituary .

  kenneth williams .

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  West70

  While I'm posting .... I still would like to know what happened to cause Ray Schneider to give up a hobby he has had for over 30 years.
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  25

  WBTS Loses Recent 2005 Federal District Court Case In Puerto Rico

  by West70 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  has this 2005 federal court decision been previously posted?

  jehovah's witnesses lose facial challenge to puerto rico controlled access law .

  in an opinion that has recently become available, the federal district court in puerto rico last month rejected a facial constitutional attack by jehovah's witnesses to the commonwealth's controlled access law.

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  West70

  I should have made these comments a day or so ago, because I am not feeling well this morning. My mind is sluggish, and this topic is very complex.
  
  Watchtower Watchers will want to keep an eye on the inevitable future proceedings of this Puerto Rico Case, as well as look for any similar ongoing cases, because the issue is much larger than this single case.
  
  I actually was led to WATCHTOWER v. RAMOS after trying to get back up to speed on WBTS legal matters and first running across VIRGINIA v. HICKS. In the HICKS case, the WBTS filed an Amicus Curiae Brief with SCOTUS as a "friend" of Hicks. SCOTUS ruled 9-0 against Hicks, who then also lost the remanded trial at the Virginia Supreme Court level.
  
  Both HICKS and RAMOS relate to the recent phenomenon of "local governments" granting other local entities possession and/or control of what is or was public property; usually in an attempt to fight crime in crime-ridden neighborhoods (apartment complexes, single family dwelling neighborhoods, etc.). The resulting legal issues can be extremely complex, and appear to be somewhat unique for each individual instance.
  
  This phenonenon is a legal headache for the WBTS. It is established law in the U.S. that while private property owners and tenants may generally prohibit JWs from entering onto their private property, state and local governments may generally not do anything which prohibits such, or even unduly burden such. However, the aforementioned phenonenon is oftentimes a hybrid of public and private property. Thus, when JWs are either prohibited or burdened from entry into these "controlled access" residential areas, the question becomes: Is such legal?
  
  These two cases are interesting to Watchtower Watchers because the WBTS is forced to take sides with criminals, or at least oppose local government's efforts to fight crime. (Civil libertarians will argue with my characterization.)
  
  In HICKS, the WBTS participated in the SCOTUS case only in the Amicus Curaie capacity. If I read the case correctly(?), the Virginia Appeals and Supreme Courts struck down the pertinent local "controlled access" efforts at crime control saying they were "unconstitutional" on their "face" (facially). Although I have NOT read the WBTS Brief, I am sure they argued about how the local regulations required JWs to first seek permission to enter the Richmond, Virginia housing project -- something that SCOTUS ruled in 2001/2 that the City of Stratton could NOT do to JWs. The WBTS would like to see ALL such "controlled access" schemes ruled "facially unconstitutional", otherwise, JWs all across the U.S. are going to be required to "seek permission" to enter more and more of these "controlled access" hybrid public/private residential areas.
  
  If I am interpreting these cases correctly, if SCOTUS rules in the likely RAMOS appeal that the PR situation is, like HICKS, NOT "facially unconstitutional", then that will mean that the WBTS will have to fight every individual situation "as applied" to the local JWs. That could mean lots of time and $$$ used up by WBTS Legal.
  
  Again, I could not locate the Watchtower's HICKS Brief on the net, nor have I found the RAMOS ruling nor the specific Puerto Rico "controlled access law". I welcome others interested in this phenomenon to help locating this info, as well as determine whether I am interpreting the issues correctly. If so, this is something to keep an eye on.
  
  Again, the WBTS is forced to take the civil libertarian side where one also will find the criminal element arguing with the WBTS. This also places the WBTS in the line of fire of local crime control efforts and groups. When SCOTUS and lower courts inevitably do rule in the WBTS's favor in some locale, then the local criminal element may finally wake up to the fact that all a criminal has to do to keep authorities from interogating them and restricting their entry to these areas is to start carrying a WATCHTOWER magazine in their pocket.
  
  This could get interesting; or maybe not.
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  61

  Charles Russell, Alleged Child Abuser

  by Farkel in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  in the thread about whether charles russell was gay or not, a topic was brought up that i believe deserves a new thread.

  as card-carrying apostates we all need to be careful about our information.

  even one mistake, whether intentional or not, gives dubs the chance to jump up and say, "see those apostates lied about that thing.

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  West70

  Thanks to both Leolaia and Barbara Anderson for "firmly establishing" Rose Ball's age, and clearing up this controversy.
  
  I am not happy with myself that I have been wrong on this issue for so long. More specifically, I am not happy that my mistake came from violating advice which I have often given others:
  
  "Don't believe a word Charles Taze Russell put in print when it relates to his personal life."
  
  Now with 20/20 vision, I look back and see that I dismissed Maria Russell's trial testimony that Rose Ball was "about 19 or 20" when she came to Allegheny based on:
  
  1. Charles Taze Russell's statement in the 2/12/1900 WT that Ball was "quite young" when she came to Allegheny.
  
  2. Charles Taze Russell's 1906 trial testimony that "she looked to be about thirteen" when she came to Allegheny. He said that he did not know how old she actually was, but that she was "a very young looking woman" who wore short dresses. When asked if Ball might have been older than 13, Russell replied that: "I heard some one say that she was only ten."
  
  3. Russell further acknowledged a couple of instances when Ball came crying and sat on his knee so he could console her.
  
  It simply did not seem to make sense that Russell could mistake a youthful looking 20 year old from a child of 13 or even 10.
  
  Knowing Rose Ball's true age raises even more questions, such as why did Russell continue to pose the lower age to his flunkies (Rutherford and others) after the trial despite having heard Maria's testimony as to a more accurate age.
  
  Can we now put an exact year as to when Ball came to Allegheny? Russell's stated in the 1900 WT that Ball came to Allegheny about 12 years prior, while Maria stated at trial that it was 12 years prior to marrying Hennings in 1897.
  
  Also, I cannot read the posted census. How many siblings did Ball have? Who was Richard? Charles was the brother who worked at HQ. It would appear that there is more to the story regarding Ball's following Charles to Allegheny. Was there an established relationship between Russell or Maria and the Ball's?
  
  At any rate, I look forward to the book to which Barabara Anderson refers.
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  25

  WBTS Loses Recent 2005 Federal District Court Case In Puerto Rico

  by West70 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  has this 2005 federal court decision been previously posted?

  jehovah's witnesses lose facial challenge to puerto rico controlled access law .

  in an opinion that has recently become available, the federal district court in puerto rico last month rejected a facial constitutional attack by jehovah's witnesses to the commonwealth's controlled access law.

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  West70

  Just found this:
  

  Puerto Rico
  29 P.R. Laws Ann. 63 -- 64h (Controlled Access Law)
  
  
  Puerto Rico's Controlled Access Law, enacted in 1987, and amended in 1992, was aimed at helping communities control crime. Under the Act, residential neighborhoods could exert some measure of control over vehicular and pedestrian traffic so long as they did not contain certain specified public facilities, or if they did not constitute thoroughfares necessary for travel between one community and another. This was generally achieved by erecting a fence or barrier where an access point used to be, effectively closing it off, and instead leaving one or two operative entrances to the neighborhood, usually manned by a guard. When a non-resident pedestrian or vehicle wished to enter the neighborhood, the guard was reached via intercom. The guard could record such information as could be ascertained by plain sight (time of entry and exit, make and model of the vehicle driven, and the license plate number of the vehicle).The guard could ask the visitor for his intended destination or the purpose of the visit. If the purpose was to see a particular resident, the guard could ask for and record the name of the visitor, but only when the resident had given the authorization to do so. Failure to adequately provide an answer to this inquiry was deemed a sufficient basis for denying the visitor's entry. The records were used to assist the police in investigating crimes committed in the area. Plaintiff's the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York and a local Jehovah's Witnesses congregation claimed, inter alia, that their members, wishing to engage in religious ministry, had been denied entrance into gated communities; had been directed to leave neighborhoods; had been threatened with, and even subject to, criminal charges; and had even been prevented from speaking to individuals on public streets and from engaging in door-to-door ministry in communities where they themselves were residents. After holding that plaintiffs had associational standing to sue on behalf of their members in federal court and had established a cognizable case and controversy, the district court held that the Act did not facially violate the First Amendment rights to free speech, freedom of the press, freedom of association, and free exercise of religion, or the Fourth Amendment right to be free from unreasonable search and seizure, or the constitutional right to travel and freedom of movement. However, the court refused to dismiss the "as applied" challenges to the Act. To make such a determination prior to discovery would be premature given the underdeveloped nature of the factual record in the case Case # 2034 (D. P.R.)

  http://www.paradigmpub.com/docs.asp?id=&pf=1&case=xpuertorico
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  7

  Gilead Missionary Eulogizes JW Deputy Sheriff

  by West70 in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  just how "jw" was this deputy sheriff?

  obituary .

  kenneth williams .

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  West70

  Come on now, the Schneiders are too well known all over the U.S. for noone here to know them. If nothing else, surely someone has had Ray bind together a NWT and Reasoning (Make Sure) book.
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  25

  WBTS Loses Recent 2005 Federal District Court Case In Puerto Rico

  by West70 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  has this 2005 federal court decision been previously posted?

  jehovah's witnesses lose facial challenge to puerto rico controlled access law .

  in an opinion that has recently become available, the federal district court in puerto rico last month rejected a facial constitutional attack by jehovah's witnesses to the commonwealth's controlled access law.

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  West70

  Before I leave ...