Posts by circare

35

Most disgusting thing from Watchtower Corp.

by spectromize in

jw
friends

one thing that really doesn't add up with the organization and their registrating to be a corp.(yes i have to put this in quote sorry it's called non-profit corp.) is the very fact that they play in the worldly system of things while they tell you to keep out of it.

(while they see nothing wrong in themselves playing the stock market with other peoples money) think about it where did jesus say to register god's organization as a corporation?.

furthermore if you were living in jesus' period of time who would be the president-vice-president-secratary- treasurer-shareholders...?.

circare

Hi waiting. Thanks for sharing those thoughts. Religion does get you thinking.

I have been following the discussions, at H20, Witnet and here, for some time, about the cases of child abuse, including the link you gave to the case of Bryan R v.WTBTS. Legally I think the WTBTS are behaving as a Corp. should to protect its' interests. I have no problem with this; I expect them to behave, as would any other legal corp. However, as you brought out, morally and spiritually we can have different expectations.

Society at large is changing its' opinion as to how paedophiles and child abusers should be treated in the general community, albeit too slowly; and the JWs have been as backward in this area as the rest.

I am sorry that you ever had to experience such things as a child. It should not be so. It is vile and disgusting to rob children of their trust and innocence in this way. Hopefully these dreadful past wrongs will be righted in some way. As importantly, hopefully, we as a society in general will develop a better way to deal with these people as they deserve and learn better ways of protecting children from becoming victims. We have a long way to go with this yet.

I am also sorry for your experiences with your local cong. elders and the continuing saga to right the situation. Unfortunately the western society's judicial systems very often do not give justice. While I have some respect and interest in its' convoluted laws once again we have a system that is a slave to itself and not necessarily the people it is supposed to serve.

Perhaps as I grew up 'in the truth' I was given a different perspective than others like you and Red and R.Cat. I only expected the organisation of JW's, 'in this system of things', to behave as imperfect humans with all the same problems as the world of humans that they live amongst. The only times I have seen any evidence of something more are times of crisis and when it comes to the furthering of the preaching work. When it comes to the individual condition of the 'sheep' I have never seen anything greater in evidence than the human beings themselves. This perspective is one that I have been 'at odds with' with some members of my family since I was very young. I think that sometimes people see what they need to see in these areas.

33

Moment of Truth/ Cognitive Dissonance

by Zep in

jw
friends

so how long have all you guyz here been apostates anyway, just curious?.i mean, it must be kind of cool to reflect and think...."well, heck, i'm a damned freaking apostate" or altleast a closet apostate, of which most of you are, i think?, right?.yeah, such a cool label is "apostate" huh!.but i'm interested, just how did all here personnally come to realise 'the truth' aint really that?, what set you on that track and made you look outside the bounds of wt literature into so-called apostate areas.. and what finally convinced you that its all just a heap of nonsense?

and forced you to shockingly conclude you had been living a lie?.what did it do to you at that moment, i mean, how did you deal with this blatant self admission that the wt was wrong?

did it crack you up or what...or did you just laugh it off or something?..

circare

Well waiting I must admit that my first thought was that the noble title of PMS couldn't be granted to a more worthy and deserving friend, but then it occurred to me that the prefix (post - portending your demise)was pre-empting your expiry date! I had not realised that you were so ancient. Maybe I should finish with "You have my condolences."?

15

Registration deadlines

by Seven in

jw
friends

to high school juniors and seniors, pay attention.

to the registration deadlines for you sat and act's.

the first sat will be given on oct. 14, 2000. deadine is sept. 12th.

circare

Hi 7,
I'm curious about how the education years are divided in the States.

What school years are covered by Junior and Senior High School and generally what ages would those years cover. Is college after Senior High? Is it before University or instead of Uni.

Before Junior High is Elementary School, yes? What age do the children usually start Elementary School?

Yeh, I know curiosity killed the cat, but that's RF not me!

33

Moment of Truth/ Cognitive Dissonance

by Zep in

jw
friends

so how long have all you guyz here been apostates anyway, just curious?.i mean, it must be kind of cool to reflect and think...."well, heck, i'm a damned freaking apostate" or altleast a closet apostate, of which most of you are, i think?, right?.yeah, such a cool label is "apostate" huh!.but i'm interested, just how did all here personnally come to realise 'the truth' aint really that?, what set you on that track and made you look outside the bounds of wt literature into so-called apostate areas.. and what finally convinced you that its all just a heap of nonsense?

and forced you to shockingly conclude you had been living a lie?.what did it do to you at that moment, i mean, how did you deal with this blatant self admission that the wt was wrong?

did it crack you up or what...or did you just laugh it off or something?..

circare

Hey Zep you'd be more of a Boag's man wouldn't you?

My 'lesser half' has been to Ben Lomond a few times. Back in the years when there was only 1 tow. On one occasion when the slope had iced up and there were no skiers around he decided to go down on a sled. He said that the iced over rocks at the top edge of the drop gave a 'real good lift'. After having survived the fast and bumpy ride down and the drop, - his only real problem was how to dig himself out of the deep hole he was stuck in! Funny, now I come to think of it, he seems to spend a lot of his life in deep holes.

35

Most disgusting thing from Watchtower Corp.

by spectromize in

jw
friends

one thing that really doesn't add up with the organization and their registrating to be a corp.(yes i have to put this in quote sorry it's called non-profit corp.) is the very fact that they play in the worldly system of things while they tell you to keep out of it.

(while they see nothing wrong in themselves playing the stock market with other peoples money) think about it where did jesus say to register god's organization as a corporation?.

furthermore if you were living in jesus' period of time who would be the president-vice-president-secratary- treasurer-shareholders...?.

circare

Hi Red I agree that there is a need "to talk to validate our experiences" and "get closure". To have the opportunity to "openly discuss the issues and shortcomings of the WTS" here on this board, (thank you Simon!), amongst what I feel is a very nice group of people, is for me a real 'boon'.

However, criticising the WTS Corp. for acting as a business corporation does not make a lot of sense to me. They do not claim to be anything else but a business org. for the financing and organising of the publishing and preaching work of the religious organisation Jehovah's Witnesses. If I was a financial expert I might feel I could judge some of their financial decisions and offer valid criticism, but I am not, therefore I expect them to make whatever decisions they think they need to make to run that Corporation reasonably well. The fact that they make investments and have annual meetings is all within the legal realms of a Corporation. Are they behaving 'unCorporation' like?

Whether we have been brought up 'in the truth' or otherwise we all 'ask' to be spoonfed initially to different degrees. And just like any baby or toddler we need that for a certain time until we have grown enough to 'push the parent away' and say 'I want to do it on my own'.

In a way I feel that "exposing the dirty underbelly of the WTBTS" goes beyond the need to "talk and validate" to an area I'm not comfortable with - and I'm not even sure why I feel that way. Maybe I'm afraid to 'go there' because I don't think I would come out a better person - just more scarred.

Waiting you are right I do think most here speak with "a spectrum of civility". That is why I like associating here. I did not mean to censure, I just wanted to introduce another perspective to consider. I like this 'family' and I am happy for any 'family members' to respond however they feel about what I have posted. I think it is the diversity of experiences and personalities that is helping me to heal and grow.

9

Love's Demise

by Frenchy in

i don't think i ever posted this one but if i did then i apolgize for doing it again.

i am of the belief that we never truly get to know one another and that even husbands and wives know perhaps only a small percentage of each other.

the reasons for this are manifold.

circare

Dear French Knight,

Once again you have managed to voice most eloquently and succinctly thoughts and emotions that elusively slip thru my own mental grasp. Well done Sir.

33

Moment of Truth/ Cognitive Dissonance

by Zep in

jw
friends

so how long have all you guyz here been apostates anyway, just curious?.i mean, it must be kind of cool to reflect and think...."well, heck, i'm a damned freaking apostate" or altleast a closet apostate, of which most of you are, i think?, right?.yeah, such a cool label is "apostate" huh!.but i'm interested, just how did all here personnally come to realise 'the truth' aint really that?, what set you on that track and made you look outside the bounds of wt literature into so-called apostate areas.. and what finally convinced you that its all just a heap of nonsense?

and forced you to shockingly conclude you had been living a lie?.what did it do to you at that moment, i mean, how did you deal with this blatant self admission that the wt was wrong?

did it crack you up or what...or did you just laugh it off or something?..

circare

Waiting - I thought 'divorce' was a good illustration to use. There is no doubting the depth of hurt and subsequent anger in this situation. However there are divorces and there are nasty, messy divorces. What makes the difference between the two?

I wasn't meaning to advocate keeping quiet as a 'submissive sister'. I think that Simon has here, on this board, given us a place we can, as you said

speak politely, or even loudly disagree. We can even openly speculate, question, reason, wonder.

Likewise, I also think Andyman could be right about holding things in being

not the way to overcome the dissapointment and anger

I agree that

Covering things up, pretending they aren't happening, isn't going to help us

and the quote from the Awake

criticism based on Gods word should be carefully considered, for it can bring real benefits”. (Awake! Nov. 22, 1974, p.28)

All good points.

However as Deacon said

Im really not into spreading a message of revenge and ridicule.

I felt Zep's questions were demeaning too and I don't want Zep to think we are here for the purpose of 'trashing' the WTS or a group of people from whom, in all honesty, we have received some benefits. The tendency is with the 'break up' of any relationship, because of the hurt and anger, to forget the good qualities the other party has and only focus on the bad. While the differences might be viewed as 'irreconcilable', (and I have no intentions of minimising the bad of the WTS and of certain individuals) sometimes it is good to step back a little and look a bit more objectively isn't it?

As you said waiting, in getting on with ones life the mood changes from week to week, and as you may have all noticed I was a 'mite tetchy' myself yesterday. Sorry.

35

Most disgusting thing from Watchtower Corp.

by spectromize in

jw
friends

one thing that really doesn't add up with the organization and their registrating to be a corp.(yes i have to put this in quote sorry it's called non-profit corp.) is the very fact that they play in the worldly system of things while they tell you to keep out of it.

(while they see nothing wrong in themselves playing the stock market with other peoples money) think about it where did jesus say to register god's organization as a corporation?.

furthermore if you were living in jesus' period of time who would be the president-vice-president-secratary- treasurer-shareholders...?.

circare

Rcat

Your right. I agree about the responsibility the WTS has for their duplicity.

In my clumsy way of expressing my thoughts I did not make it clear that I was not excusing the WTS for their behaviour, but questioning ours.

For many years people have had a 'payoff' for being told what to do. They have asked to be treated like children and not to have to do the thinking or research for themselves. Now that we have 'grown up' a little (which, giving some credit where it is due, the WTS has helped us to do) we want to be treated differently. Well good for us don't you think? However why waste our energy and time on nit-picking and name-calling? Or haven't we grown at all? Do we want to be content with displaying the same attitudes and intolerances as before only from the other side of the fence?

33

Moment of Truth/ Cognitive Dissonance

by Zep in

jw
friends

so how long have all you guyz here been apostates anyway, just curious?.i mean, it must be kind of cool to reflect and think...."well, heck, i'm a damned freaking apostate" or altleast a closet apostate, of which most of you are, i think?, right?.yeah, such a cool label is "apostate" huh!.but i'm interested, just how did all here personnally come to realise 'the truth' aint really that?, what set you on that track and made you look outside the bounds of wt literature into so-called apostate areas.. and what finally convinced you that its all just a heap of nonsense?

and forced you to shockingly conclude you had been living a lie?.what did it do to you at that moment, i mean, how did you deal with this blatant self admission that the wt was wrong?

did it crack you up or what...or did you just laugh it off or something?..

circare

Hi Everyone,

I 'vented' in another thread and now after reading this I am sorry that I did so. My apologies. I can see from reading the comments here that we are all mostly of 'like mind'. I also feel Deacon and Path have expressed well my feelings on the subject.

As waiting said there is

disillusion, hurt, anger, waste, waking up, being alone

but I don't feel that gives us permission to act 'uncivilly' or 'unchrist-like' by name calling. What is the next step? When have a large enough crowd gathered together here and we have 'whipped up' everyone's courage enough we can then start throwing stones?

My vote is for Deacon's approach

I will deal with my own pain, loss, sense of abandonment and emptiness in a fitting and christian manner

35

Most disgusting thing from Watchtower Corp.

by spectromize in

jw
friends

one thing that really doesn't add up with the organization and their registrating to be a corp.(yes i have to put this in quote sorry it's called non-profit corp.) is the very fact that they play in the worldly system of things while they tell you to keep out of it.

(while they see nothing wrong in themselves playing the stock market with other peoples money) think about it where did jesus say to register god's organization as a corporation?.

furthermore if you were living in jesus' period of time who would be the president-vice-president-secratary- treasurer-shareholders...?.

circare

Hey guys,

I know I'm putting my neck on the block here, so go ahead and chop away,………

Who are we referring to when we talk about the old being thrown out of Bethel?

That is certainly not the case here at the Australian Bethel. I personally know and have witnessed over many years the care and love given to the older ones who have spent their lives serving in the 'ministry'. I can testify to the patience and care given older ones, - some who have developed dementia in their older years. These older ones have received 24hr a day 'babysitting' and medical care, but beyond that, they have received love and caring and tenderness and respect that normally would only come from a blood relative. These older ones have told me personally that there is no where else they would rather be, (and who am I to judge what they should want or not want - each to their own!) Their greatest sadness is that they are no longer 'useful' and they can no longer do their bethel job or serve out on the circuit or missionary assignments which is what they LOVED to do!

It also seems to me that the WTS is in a 'no win situation' when it comes to the financing of the preaching work and all the necessary organisational structure that comes with that. Doesn't it strike you that they are in the classic situation illustrated in Aesop's fable of 'the Man, the Boy and the Donkey'? No matter what they do they receive criticism from somebody about how they do it. They are 'too greedy' and 'only interested in the money', they don't make 'good use of the money' or they 'should make better financial decisions with the money they have so as not to burden the brothers' or 'they don't look after the ones who work full time' or 'they look after 'their own' too well' etc. etc. etc.

Sure there are many legitimate criticisms that can be made about individual brothers in authoritative positions and legitimate criticisms for mistakes and unfortunate attitudes by the WTS over the years, - but aren't we clutching at straws here?

I feel that we sometimes act like disgruntled teenagers realising for the first time that our adored 'parents' are not perfect after all! In our disappointment at the realities of 'grown-up' life we are now casting about for reasons to blame our 'parent' for all our perceived problems in life without taking responsibility for the decisions we made. Yes - we may have made those decisions based on 'bad advice', but we did make those decisions ourselves, and for every one of us that took a particular course of action, there was another brother or sister making the opposite decision whom 'we looked down on'.

The 'parent' that gave the 'bad advice', was it out of some heinous or ulterior motive to benefit in some way from us 'the children'? Or was it like any parent who gives bad advice from time to time with their children - they did the best they could with what they knew at the time, with the motive of trying to do the right thing!

Isn't there some more constructive purpose we could achieve with this forum?

Edited by - circare on 29 August 2000 2:41:27