That's why I quoted 1 Th, 1 Cor, and Gal. I could have quoted more passages from the supposedly genuine Paulines as well. The OP was not about the debate regarding the disputed Pauline letters but about the kingdom in Paul—nothing like going off on a tangent. What about the matter in the OP?
careful
JoinedPosts by careful
-
26
Does Paul preach a fundamentally different religion than Jesus?
by Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu incontroversy has arisen regarding jesus versus paul as scholars debate the different emphases and messages of jesus and paul.1 jesus preached the kingdom of heaven.
paul did not.
paul preached justification by faith alone.
-
-
careful
-
26
Does Paul preach a fundamentally different religion than Jesus?
by Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu incontroversy has arisen regarding jesus versus paul as scholars debate the different emphases and messages of jesus and paul.1 jesus preached the kingdom of heaven.
paul did not.
paul preached justification by faith alone.
-
-
careful
So Paul did not peach the kingdom of God? Hmmm...
So when Paul told the Thessalonians "God ... calls you to his kingdom and glory" (1 Th 2:12) and then later to the same people,"you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God" (2 Th 1:5), or in his frequent warnings about sins that would mean his converts would not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor 6:9, 19; Gal 5:21; Eph 5:5), he was not speaking of the kingdom of God that Jesus spoke of? Are you serious?
-
23
Was Ray Franz Playing The Long Game?
by rory-ks ini'm just making my way through crisis of conscience for the second time and once again i am struck by the presentation of such detailed records.
letters are shown in full - copies of letters from the branch, and to the branch.
reports are quoted vebatim.
-
-
careful
blondie, thanks for this:
Being da'd woke up Ray to the finality of changing the WTS. But he wanted so share what he had learned the hard way to make it easier for others like me to wake up.
-
241
Another generation....
by joey jojo init has been 21 years since the 1995 article that pretty much buried the idea of the '1914 generation'.. remember those guys?
the ones born in 1914 that would still be alive when the end of the system arrived.. i'm glad i'm old enough to remember going from door to door, preaching this belief.
the reason i say that is because i have a lot of 'still in' jw friends and family.
-
-
careful
I doubt there has ever been so much rapid change in the organisation. I can't help but think its just all sizzle to disguise the fact that there is no steak anymore.
Wisely put!
-
23
Was Ray Franz Playing The Long Game?
by rory-ks ini'm just making my way through crisis of conscience for the second time and once again i am struck by the presentation of such detailed records.
letters are shown in full - copies of letters from the branch, and to the branch.
reports are quoted vebatim.
-
-
careful
rory, it's coincidental that last week I took out my 1st ed. hard copy of CofC from my storage boxes in a closet and also began rereading it after 30+ years. I've got a 4th ed. electronic version, so I thought it would be doubly good to see how I would react now to his book and my marginal comments made in it from so many years ago, and to compare how the book changed as it has gone thru its revisions. I've only had the time to go thru a few chapters, but it has been revealing on several fronts.
As to your question, I remember that, as you said about others, it took me many years to deal with my increasing doubts as I witnessed the organization's internal corruption that I saw while rising within it (indeed your "catalyst for change"—nice phrase). I had filing cabinets filled with pre-electronic files of papers, and a large library of non-organizational books and WT publications. I felt it was necessary to have as much info as I could available to me so I could learn as many of the facts as possible and therefore make an informed decision about my future (of course, I've jettisoned much of it over the years, but I still have a fraction of it). So as others have already expressed above, I do not find it at all odd that RF kept documents and records long in advance. In fact, I would expect that.
Unlike RF, I realized that trying to change things from the inside was futile and likely suicidal, so I gradually and carefully bailed in a well planned way before issues would come to a head. In Ray's situation, that was not possible since he'd served on the GB. Fading was not an option in his case. For him, it was more like having become a "made man" in the Mafia: no one can leave (the GB) like he did without a hit being put out on him.
-
23
The goal in all this 1918/1919 change?
by careful inas some have recently posted here, there does seem to be a shift going on in their self-interpretation(s) of what happened in 1918 and 1919. if we can look past all the details that emphasize the poor thinking and poor wording (or contradictions/just plain craziness/insignificance) of their message, something bigger seems to be afoot.
they appear to be attempting to redefine the meanings for some "prophetic" scriptures in light of themselves.
1. they are trying to somehow fill the void they have themselves created from their rejecting freddie franz's (ff) type–anti-type postulations.
-
-
careful
SBF, I found the same link you provided on a google search, but when I hit it, it was just as dead as when I clicked on the link you provided. A search on worldcat reveals that Ahlstrom's work is a 1990 dissertation done at the University of California Santa Barbara, likely before all such dissertations were microfilmed. Someone beside the UCSB library, which holds the lone hard copy available and likely did not make a pdf of it (or it would be on their catalogue entry), must have made a pdf and uploaded on some website which is no longer is hosting the link. Do you have a pdf version in your files that you can share here?
-
23
The goal in all this 1918/1919 change?
by careful inas some have recently posted here, there does seem to be a shift going on in their self-interpretation(s) of what happened in 1918 and 1919. if we can look past all the details that emphasize the poor thinking and poor wording (or contradictions/just plain craziness/insignificance) of their message, something bigger seems to be afoot.
they appear to be attempting to redefine the meanings for some "prophetic" scriptures in light of themselves.
1. they are trying to somehow fill the void they have themselves created from their rejecting freddie franz's (ff) type–anti-type postulations.
-
-
careful
Thanks, SBF. Yes, I remember reading those IDs of Russell years ago. I cannot get the link to work. Would you repost, please?
-
40
What if Fred Franz had never existed?
by Magnum inwhat if fred franz had never existed?.
those of you who weren’t around in the days when he was the oracle of jwdom or who at least aren’t familiar with the deeper publications he was responsible for probably won’t be able to comprehend the significance of the question.
i believe he influenced jwdom greatly, and the whole feel of jwdom would have been different without him.. during the 60’s, 70’s, & 80’s (not sure about 50’s), he was considered to be almost superhuman by some (a lot?
-
-
careful
Many of us who were around during Franz’s heyday remember how JWdom was then. It was not shiny and shallow as it is now. Yeah, it was wrong then, too, but it was still different. It was deeper. It had a scholarly feel to it. It was bold and there was more dignity. Individual JWs and the org loved doctrine and deeper discussions back then; they weren’t scared of such as are individual JWs and the org of today. There was excitement in the air; the end of the world and our deliverance were imminent. JWdom attracted some really smart, stable people. I was there; I saw it. I remember the deep, exciting poolside discussions after district convention sessions. The look and feel of JWdom were just so different back then.
Right on, Magnum. I remember these things too.
BTW, FF became the WTS oracle from JFR's death on, long before the 1960s.
-
23
The goal in all this 1918/1919 change?
by careful inas some have recently posted here, there does seem to be a shift going on in their self-interpretation(s) of what happened in 1918 and 1919. if we can look past all the details that emphasize the poor thinking and poor wording (or contradictions/just plain craziness/insignificance) of their message, something bigger seems to be afoot.
they appear to be attempting to redefine the meanings for some "prophetic" scriptures in light of themselves.
1. they are trying to somehow fill the void they have themselves created from their rejecting freddie franz's (ff) type–anti-type postulations.
-
-
careful
As some have recently posted here, there does seem to be a shift going on in their self-interpretation(s) of what happened in 1918 and 1919. If we can look past all the details that emphasize the poor thinking and poor wording (or contradictions/just plain craziness/insignificance) of their message, something bigger seems to be afoot. What is it? They appear to be attempting to redefine the meanings for some "prophetic" scriptures in light of themselves. A few ideas/observations:
1. They are trying to somehow fill the void they have themselves created from their rejecting Freddie Franz's (FF) type–anti-type postulations. They are not as intelligent as he was, in fact, are much dumber, so are struggling to make their new proposals in some way work, at least in their own minds.
2. Many Witnesses have often felt that some small assembly in Ohio during the 1920s seemed too insignificant for a plague in the book of Revelation to have been poured out upon the earth, etc., etc., and that such an interpretation was just too obscure to believe. Likewise FF's ideas that the big gap in Western civilization's history from the end of the first century when the apostles were gone (or the Roman empire falling) to Charles Taze Russell's (CTR) day (or the rise of the "Anglo-American world power") had more significance than FF would allow.
3. What we may be witnessing then is a return to CTR's ideas that people/key figures from the Protestant Reformation (or even earlier) onward, or certain features of Western civilization's history, were foretold in scripture. He identified Luther, Wycliffe, and others with passages in Revelation and the Hebrew prophets. GB 2.0 seem like they may be going back to such a view. Reported on this forum was a post that a Bethel heavy recently made a statement in harmony with this. Furthermore, the Bible display/museum they are working on contains copies of translations they have been collecting that would also be in agreement with this. Evidently if you were some figure in pre-WTS Protestantism and you used "Jehovah" for the divine name in your Bible translation, then you may rate a place in upcoming WTS pontifications of prophecy!
Of course, another factor likely at work now is their interest in maintaining the importance of 1914, so that might somehow figure in here as well.
Just some thoughts...
-
63
Is it possible to decline preaching in the carts?
by Skepsis inhi folks,.
i have a difficult dilemma.
since i'm not pioneering any more, i'm reducing my hours wasted at that artifact known as cart or trolley.
-
-
careful
If you're in the USA, you could grow a beard! Of course, that might be a problem with the family too.
But your comment is revealing on one point: back when those carts first appeared, it was only pioneers and other "highly privileged ones" who could work them. So now it's just about anyone???