wizzstick

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Posts by wizzstick

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  21

  Other Sheep question

  by wizzstick in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  coming off from my thread on the great crowd, (once again thanks td, annomaly and all the others for their help), a question on the other sheep in the 33ce - 1935 ce for the great jwn mind hive.. the qfr in the w86 8/1 p31 ends up with confirming about the other sheep pre-33ce:.

  someone might reason: jesus was pointing to a future gathering of other sheep, hence the term applies only to those who, after jesus spoke, would accept the biblical hope of everlasting life on earth.

  however, it seems unnecessary to confine the term thusly, as if jesus were defining matters chronologically or sequentially.

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  wizzstick

  Thanks Fernando, Bobcat, Sapphy, slimboyfat, AnnOMaly and bats is the belfry.

  I just astounded by this.

  I mean the answer is obvious, isn't it? One of the writing committee could knock out an explanation like this in 5 minutes:

  "However those who were not of the annointed in later Roman times, like around 300CE when Diocletion butchered more Christians that there are those of the annointed, were of the Other Sheep. Example of what Diocletian's persecution below:

  "Diocletian assumed the crown A.D. 284. At first he seemed friendly to the Christians, but in the year 303 he gave in to persuasion and opened the tenth persecution, probably the most ferocious of all. Suffocation by smoke, forcible drinking of melted lead, mass drownings and burnings, breaking on the rack of men and women alike ran the empire with blood. In a single month 17,000 were slain. In the province of Egypt alone, 144,000 such professed Christians died by violence in the course of this persecution, in addition to another 700,000 who died as a result of fatigues encountered in banishment or under enforced public works." Watchtower 1951 September 1 p.518

  So these, like pre-Christian witnesses, would receive an earthly resurrection."

  Voila. That took two minutes.

  Surely someone, somewhere has asked them this? I guess this shows that they just don't give a crap about anyone between the Apostle John's death and Russell (plus the other 19th century gang).

  Incredible. You know what, I actually might write to the London Bethel and ask what the official line on this is! I'm really curious to their reply!
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  21

  Other Sheep question

  by wizzstick in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  coming off from my thread on the great crowd, (once again thanks td, annomaly and all the others for their help), a question on the other sheep in the 33ce - 1935 ce for the great jwn mind hive.. the qfr in the w86 8/1 p31 ends up with confirming about the other sheep pre-33ce:.

  someone might reason: jesus was pointing to a future gathering of other sheep, hence the term applies only to those who, after jesus spoke, would accept the biblical hope of everlasting life on earth.

  however, it seems unnecessary to confine the term thusly, as if jesus were defining matters chronologically or sequentially.

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  wizzstick

  Coming off from my thread on the Great Crowd, (once again thanks TD, AnnOMaly and all the others for their help), a question on the Other Sheep in the 33CE - 1935 CE for the great JWN mind hive.

  The QFR in the W86 8/1 P31‏ ends up with confirming about the Other Sheep pre-33CE:

  Someone might reason: Jesus was pointing to a future gathering of “other sheep,” hence the term applies only to those who, after Jesus spoke, would accept the Biblical hope of everlasting life on earth. However, it seems unnecessary to confine the term thusly, as if Jesus were defining matters chronologically or se quentially. We believe that he was stressing that he was the shepherd of the unified sheep. Some sheeplike persons come into a fold to go to heaven. There are also other sheep who will accept him as shepherd; these will be at unity with those first mentioned. Having this view, the term “other sheep” includes men of faith who died before Jesus inaugurated the way to heaven, such as Noah, Abraham, Job, David, and John the Baptizer. (Matthew 11:11; Acts 2:29; Hebrews 10:19, 20) When these are resurrected in the new system of things, they can accept the Fine Shepherd and have the prospect of end less earthly life with the rest of Jesus’ “other sheep.”

  But I can't find any clarification regarding non-annointed in the 33CE - 1935CE period being Other Sheep.

  In the other thread TD said:

  In JW theology, there was only one hope from Pentecost clear up until the supposed proximity of the end made the identification of the Great Crowd possible.

  "For 19 centuries there was only the one calling, the heavenly one, with Jehovah being very selective as to who would serve with his Son to make up the Kingdom government. (The Watchtower, February 15, 1982 p. 30)

  It is not possible for "Other Sheep" to exist as a class apart from the "Great Crowd" in the Christian era. (Again in JW theology) John only saw two groups, not three.

  So does anyone know whether there are any articles suggesting what happens if you are are non-annointed in the 33CE - 1935CE period. I've been researching this for hours on the WT CD-Rom and I can't believe they haven't talked somewhere about if you were non-annointed between in those years.

  Or are we left to assume they are Other Sheep by virtue of the 'fact' pre-Christian witnesses are.

  Otherwise there's a wacky gap in WT literature/theology! And JW's, like me, just make an (albeit) logical guess that they are OS without the actually WT ever saying so.

  (Not wishing to sound like I doubt you TD but I've been mulling this over the weekend and it seems insane that there is such a hole in WT theology!)
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  47

  Overlapping Generations: A wacky kool-aid thread

  by RayPublisher in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  another wacky kool aid thread for your reading pleasure from the hardcore dubbs on jw talk dot net is here if you want to read it:.

  they wax philosophical, they curse this horrible old world, they gently try to project how soon the big a will come, and then swoon when someone quotes a tidbit from a gb member that they overheard.

  warning: those with weak stomachs do not read!.

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  wizzstick

  Heeeyyyyyyy. . . . I do believe WIZZSTICK was just being sarcastic. . . . Give him some room to breathe.

  I know personally my sarcasm runs soooooo deep it almost seems from the heart

  You are indeed right breakfast of champions.

  It struck me as funny that the 'old light' is still online on the WT Online library, in Reasoning from the Scriptures. That book is online to help JWs 'reason' with people but contains an out of date explanation. So, for example, a kid at school using his WOL could easily preach old light in explaining it.

  Food at the proper time indeed!
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  47

  Overlapping Generations: A wacky kool-aid thread

  by RayPublisher in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  another wacky kool aid thread for your reading pleasure from the hardcore dubbs on jw talk dot net is here if you want to read it:.

  they wax philosophical, they curse this horrible old world, they gently try to project how soon the big a will come, and then swoon when someone quotes a tidbit from a gb member that they overheard.

  warning: those with weak stomachs do not read!.

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  wizzstick

  What is all this disgraceful apostate talk from JWTalk and JWN?

  Overlapping generations?

  Why that is not what I read this afternoon - it's this generation that was alive when “the sign” of “the last days” began its fulfillment...

  Click on the fine up todate spiritual food from the Faithful and Discrete Slave...food at the proper time brothers:

  http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989220

  Scroll all the way down to: When will the end of this wicked world come?

  And let there be an end to this shameful nonsense. Overlapping generations indeed!
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  79

  When did people of the Great Crowd start to appear?

  by wizzstick in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  quick question, faithful followers of our treacherous hearts... .

  i should know the answer to this but.... so the great crowd class were identified in 1935, but does the wt suggest when it's members first appeared on earth?

  all first century christians were of the annointed (i think that's right), so when do they think the first of the great crowd rolled up?.

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  wizzstick

  In 2007, the WT was forced to do away with 1935 when the last 3 Governing Body members (who were born before 1935) passed away. The current Governing Body has no members who were born before 1935. But when they erased 1935, they never provided a NEW start date for the Great Crowd.

  I was going to say 'but that was about erasing 1935 as the date for the sealing of the annointed...not for identifying the Great Crowd'...but thinking about it one followed the other right?
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  79

  When did people of the Great Crowd start to appear?

  by wizzstick in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  quick question, faithful followers of our treacherous hearts... .

  i should know the answer to this but.... so the great crowd class were identified in 1935, but does the wt suggest when it's members first appeared on earth?

  all first century christians were of the annointed (i think that's right), so when do they think the first of the great crowd rolled up?.

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  wizzstick

  Thanks AnnOMaly - really appreciate all your support with this.

  Concerning:

  An earthly class did appear before then but they weren't identified with the 'great crowd' which was, back in the Russellite era, another spirit-begotten, heavenly class

  Was that known as the Jonadab class?
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  79

  When did people of the Great Crowd start to appear?

  by wizzstick in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  quick question, faithful followers of our treacherous hearts... .

  i should know the answer to this but.... so the great crowd class were identified in 1935, but does the wt suggest when it's members first appeared on earth?

  all first century christians were of the annointed (i think that's right), so when do they think the first of the great crowd rolled up?.

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  wizzstick

  Wow. What an eye openng thread. Seriously, I've learnt more here in 24 hours, than I have in the last 25 years of being a JW.

  So in JW theolgy do the 'hopes' run like this (have I got it right?):

  • From Abel to 33CE it's 'Other Sheep'
  • From 33CE - 1935 it's 'annointed only'
  • From 1935 to present it's two hopes 'Great crowd'* and 'annointed'

  (*However great crowd is a misnomer as they are the ones that come out of the GT, and if ,for example, the GT is 100 years away then actually all who are alive today are actually other sheep without realising it.)

  Is that right?
• 
  79

  When did people of the Great Crowd start to appear?

  by wizzstick in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  quick question, faithful followers of our treacherous hearts... .

  i should know the answer to this but.... so the great crowd class were identified in 1935, but does the wt suggest when it's members first appeared on earth?

  all first century christians were of the annointed (i think that's right), so when do they think the first of the great crowd rolled up?.

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  wizzstick

  Well JW's invoke the concept of "True" Christians and hold that there were very, very few of them from about the end of the 1st century on.

  Of course, forgot that. But how could 144,000 (!) Christians die in Egypt alone from persecution and not be considered true Christians?

  Stunning.
• 
  79

  When did people of the Great Crowd start to appear?

  by wizzstick in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  quick question, faithful followers of our treacherous hearts... .

  i should know the answer to this but.... so the great crowd class were identified in 1935, but does the wt suggest when it's members first appeared on earth?

  all first century christians were of the annointed (i think that's right), so when do they think the first of the great crowd rolled up?.

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  2. 
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• 

  wizzstick

  Brilliant TD! That's the quote I needed:

  "For 19 centuries there was only the one calling, the heavenly one, with Jehovah being very selective as to who would serve with his Son to make up the Kingdom government. (The Watchtower, February 15, 1982 p. 30)

  Has the WT ever rescinded that view?

  If not then surely their 144,000 idea doesn't stack up given the number of Christians who died in the first three centuries alone?
• 
  79

  When did people of the Great Crowd start to appear?

  by wizzstick in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  quick question, faithful followers of our treacherous hearts... .

  i should know the answer to this but.... so the great crowd class were identified in 1935, but does the wt suggest when it's members first appeared on earth?

  all first century christians were of the annointed (i think that's right), so when do they think the first of the great crowd rolled up?.

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  wizzstick

  What is seems you're looking for is when 'other sheep' started to be gathered

  So just to clarify, in WT theory at Pentecost 33CE when the spirit was poured out, all there were of the annointed. And over time, as they preached to the gentiles and Jews some newbies would have become annointed and some of the other sheep and not annointed.

  But I'm sure I read somewhere in a WT that basically the first century christians were thought to be of the annointed. 5,000 were added at Pentecost and another 4,000 soon after according to the Bible. So that's over 5% of the annointed right there. According to the footnote in the WT Online library on Acts 21:20 after the words 'thousands' it says “myriads; tens of thousands.”

  I'm looking into how many christians died in the first few centuries, and just now found this quote on JW Facts from the WT:

  "Diocletian assumed the crown A.D. 284. At first he seemed friendly to the Christians, but in the year 303 he gave in to persuasion and opened the tenth persecution, probably the most ferocious of all. Suffocation by smoke, forcible drinking of melted lead, mass drownings and burnings, breaking on the rack of men and women alike ran the empire with blood. In a single month 17,000 were slain. In the province of Egypt alone, 144,000 such professed Christians died by violence in the course of this persecution, in addition to another 700,000 who died as a result of fatigues encountered in banishment or under enforced public works." Watchtower 1951 September 1 p.518

  Which is very helpful (gawd bless JW Facts).

  Now that's a vast number. So at least some of the annointed would have died in that time, so if the annonited had existed since 33CE and if the memorial figures were right in the 1930s....

  Nah. Doesn't stack up does it?

  Oh well, that's a bit more of my faith crumbling right there.