Posts by wizzstick

183

The Great Crowd!

by A Believer in

notice the 144000 can be counted and they all come from israel.. 9 after this i saw, and look!

a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ .

this great crowd, no man was able to number, and they come from every nation!

wizzstick

At Revelation 7:9, the great crowd is not seen as being in heaven. Their “standing before the throne” of God does not require them to be in heaven. They are simply in the sight of God.

The WT certainly say this but they are even ignorant of the greek for 'standing' and 'before' or chose to ignore it. I suspect the latter.

Standing:

Revelation 7:9: ‘standing’ - the greek word here is hestōtes

Short Definition: I cause to stand, stand

The use of hestōtes in Revelation 7:9 is listed under Thayer’s II.1: ‘properly, a. followed by prepositions or adverbs of place

So the Great Crowd are standing before in a literal ‘proper’ sense,

Before:

The greek word here is enópios: in sight of, before

Short Definition: before the face of, in the presence of

Use of enopion in Rev 7:9.

How can the great crowd be stood in sight of the throne (where God is seated) and in sight of the Lamb (Jesus Christ - who is in heaven) and yet still be on Earth?

Use of enopion in Rev 7:11.

All the angels were standing around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell facedown before the throne and worshipped God,

In this scripture, all the angels are standing and fall before the throne and worship God.

Are they on Earth or in Heaven?

Same words as Rev 7:9, but in a different location? How does that work?

Here are more examples of enopion (before):

Revelation 1:4 - "seven spirits that are before (enopion) his [God's] throne, ...."
Revelation 4:5 - "seven lamps of fire burning before (enopion) the throne [of God], ...."
Revelation 4:10 - "the twenty-four elders fall down before (enopion) the One seated upon the throne..., and they cast their crowns before (enopion) the throne, ...."
Revelation 5:8 - "And when he took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before (enopion) the Lamb, having each one a harp and golden bowls that were full of incense, and the means the prayers of the holy ones."
Revelation 8:3 - "And another angel arrived and stood at the altar, having ... incense ... to offer ... with the prayers of all the holy ones upon the golden altar that was before (enopion) the throne."
Revelation 9:13 - "And I heard one voice out of the horns of the golden altar that is before (enopion) God."
Revelation 11:16 – “And the twenty-four elders who were seated before (enopion) God ...."

So are all the above in heaven or on earth?
The great crowd are in naos (the divine habitation - where God resides) standing (literally) before (in sight of) the throne.
The great crowd is in heaven.

183

The Great Crowd!

by A Believer in

notice the 144000 can be counted and they all come from israel.. 9 after this i saw, and look!

a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ .

this great crowd, no man was able to number, and they come from every nation!

wizzstick

But after a while, it starts seeming more like a surreal, dystopian nightmare.

Rather like all religious beliefs.

183

The Great Crowd!

by A Believer in

notice the 144000 can be counted and they all come from israel.. 9 after this i saw, and look!

a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ .

this great crowd, no man was able to number, and they come from every nation!

wizzstick

Even the Watchtower has to admit that naos means the divine habitation.

Rev 7:15 footnote

Divine (meaning God) habitation (where he lives).

Do you think God will live on earth?

183

The Great Crowd!

by A Believer in

notice the 144000 can be counted and they all come from israel.. 9 after this i saw, and look!

a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ .

this great crowd, no man was able to number, and they come from every nation!

wizzstick

A Believer - what are you struggling with?

This is very, very simple.

The great crowd of Rev 7:15 are in naos, which is in heaven.

They are not on earth.

Is English a second language to you? None of your replies seem to connect to what Sanchy and I am saying to you...

183

The Great Crowd!

by A Believer in

notice the 144000 can be counted and they all come from israel.. 9 after this i saw, and look!

a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ .

this great crowd, no man was able to number, and they come from every nation!

wizzstick

This isn't the same great crowd as in revelation 19.

You seem to be fixated on this point.

I'm speaking about where they are. Not which great crowd is which.

The great crowd of Rev 7:15 are in naos.

183

The Great Crowd!

by A Believer in

notice the 144000 can be counted and they all come from israel.. 9 after this i saw, and look!

a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ .

this great crowd, no man was able to number, and they come from every nation!

wizzstick

If you are interested you can read my PowerPoint where I pasted my answers which I found from the WT.

Questions are at the top of the slides, and answers copy and pasted below:

The Great Crowd - where are they?

It's bare boned and has no whizzy stuff, and was only meant to store my research, but you're more than welcome to take a gander.

You may find the slides 33 and 34 interesting as it shows where Naos was on Herod's temple.

Naos was the place that only the high priest could enter - even Jesus on Earth couldn't enter naos...

183

The Great Crowd!

by A Believer in

notice the 144000 can be counted and they all come from israel.. 9 after this i saw, and look!

a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ .

this great crowd, no man was able to number, and they come from every nation!

wizzstick

Still...who are survivors of great tribulation from every nation? Not angels. Can you answer me that?

They are in naos. That's what the Bible says:

15 That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple (na·oi); and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them.

Here are some other examples of the use of naos:

Rev 11:19
And the temple sanctuary (naos) of God that is in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen in his temple sanctuary (nao). And there occurred lightnings and voices and thunders and an earthquake and a great hail.

Rev 11:19
And the temple sanctuary (naos) of God that is in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen in his temple sanctuary (nao). And there occurred lightnings and voices and thunders and an earthquake and a great hail.

Rev 14:17
17 And still another angel emerged from the temple sanctuary (naou) that is in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle.

Rev 16:17
And the seventh one poured out his bowl upon the air. At this a loud voice issued out of the sanctuary (naou) from the throne, saying: “It has come to pass!”

Rev 21:22
And I did not see a temple (naon) in it, for Jehovah God the Almighty is its temple (naos) , also the Lamb [is]

How can they be in the same place as Jehovah and be on Earth at the same time?

Or will God be living on Earth in the future?

183

The Great Crowd!

by A Believer in

notice the 144000 can be counted and they all come from israel.. 9 after this i saw, and look!

a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ .

this great crowd, no man was able to number, and they come from every nation!

wizzstick

Can't you read the Bible?

Revelation 7:!5

It explicitly states they are in the Temple. The divine habitation. It's heaven!

Scroll down the WT's own Kingdom Interlinear: Revelation 7 Kingdom Interlinear

ναῷ is naos. Where God lives...

183

The Great Crowd!

by A Believer in

notice the 144000 can be counted and they all come from israel.. 9 after this i saw, and look!

a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ .

this great crowd, no man was able to number, and they come from every nation!

wizzstick

Of course, Jehovah's Witnesses have always recognized that the term "great crowd" is used uniquely at Revelation 7:9 in that there that particular "great crowd" describes the group of humans who survive the "great tribulation" to live forever on earth.

Wrong.

The Great Crowd are in heaven. At least, according to the Bible...

19

UK 'blood' court case re:2yo

by darkspilver in

hi orphancrow.

thought you might be interested in the following, brief, court case summary.

high court family division - 18 november 2016an nhs foundation hospital v mr and mrs t. http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/ewhc/fam/2016/2980.html.

wizzstick

They are understandably unable to consent to what is being proposed but they do not oppose it and leave the decision to the Court.

What? That's bizzare.

If doing what is right by God's standards was really in T's best interests then not only would they be unable to consent but they would also oppose it.

It's great T will get what he needs - but the above highlights the wackiness of JW logic.

We do not consent!

But we shall not oppose either...

This is what God wants us to do. Oh yes.