M*A*S*H

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Posts by M*A*S*H

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  174

  Awake #4/2016: Homosexuality

  by Designer Stubble in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the new awake is up on jw.orgwith the legalization of gay marriage in many countries, they decided it was time to show: "what does thebible say about homosexuality?

  "does the bible promote prejudice?still, some people would say that the bible promotes prejudice against homosexuals and that those who adhere to itsmoral code are intolerant.

  ‘the bible was written at a time when people were narrow-minded,’ they claim.

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  M*A*S*H

  @Cofty. Well that's pretty funny. Your last post is a straw man argument from start to finish!
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  174

  Awake #4/2016: Homosexuality

  by Designer Stubble in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the new awake is up on jw.orgwith the legalization of gay marriage in many countries, they decided it was time to show: "what does thebible say about homosexuality?

  "does the bible promote prejudice?still, some people would say that the bible promotes prejudice against homosexuals and that those who adhere to itsmoral code are intolerant.

  ‘the bible was written at a time when people were narrow-minded,’ they claim.

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  M*A*S*H

  @Cofty.

  You only seem to be interested in semantics.

  What a ridiculous thing to say! The whole discussion is about semantics, we are discussing the meaning of the label homophobic (and others). Please do enlighten me, how one would go about discussing this without being interested in semantics?

  Your lengthy response added more heat than light.

  My lengthy response demonstrated;

  • You attempted to excuse the WBTS from the label of homophobic
  • You do not understand the difference between an ism and spectrum, that isms can fit on a spectrum but an ism is not spectrum.
  • I lampooned your silly idea that the ism's we discussed are in fact spectra
  • I gave a good account of why your idea that JW's do not allow their homophobia to "affect how they relate to gay people" is BS
  • I demonstrated why the definition of homophobia you gave from the ADL does fit the WBTS.

  You now have now further acted as a WTBS apologist from your last post.

  "Their teachings lead to self-loathing."

  The bible does that.
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  174

  Awake #4/2016: Homosexuality

  by Designer Stubble in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the new awake is up on jw.orgwith the legalization of gay marriage in many countries, they decided it was time to show: "what does thebible say about homosexuality?

  "does the bible promote prejudice?still, some people would say that the bible promotes prejudice against homosexuals and that those who adhere to itsmoral code are intolerant.

  ‘the bible was written at a time when people were narrow-minded,’ they claim.

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  M*A*S*H

  @sparrowdown. The fact that we all know what you mean by 'non-practicing gay' I find quite shameful. But, be careful, those that encourage homosexuals to be 'non-practicing' should not be labelled homophobic.

  I am not sure where on the new 'homophobic spectrum' we would place organisations that demand homosexuals to be 'non-practicing'... but I have a stab. I think we should label such organisations:

  'I can't believe believe it's not homophobic (now with no added hatred)'
  
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  174

  Awake #4/2016: Homosexuality

  by Designer Stubble in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the new awake is up on jw.orgwith the legalization of gay marriage in many countries, they decided it was time to show: "what does thebible say about homosexuality?

  "does the bible promote prejudice?still, some people would say that the bible promotes prejudice against homosexuals and that those who adhere to itsmoral code are intolerant.

  ‘the bible was written at a time when people were narrow-minded,’ they claim.

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  M*A*S*H

  Pointing out that one bad thing is not as bad as another bad thing is not the same as saying the first bad thing isn't bad. This piece of logic seems very obvious to me.

  @Cofty

  Yes that logic is obvious. However without wanting to copy and paste what you wrote for a third time, that is not what you said. You attempted to excuse the WBTS from the label of homophobic by implying the label homophobic should only be applied to those shoving homosexuals from tall buildings. This piece of logic seems very obvious to me.

  Sexism, racism and homophobia are all on a spectrum

  The acts which demonstrate sexism, racism and homophobia could be placed on a spectrum. However, the terms sexism, racism and homophobia are NOT spectra.

  To add another ism to the pot... if you discriminate or demonstrate hatred against Jewish people because they are Jewish, you are an antisemite. It does not matter if you pushed them out of line queuing for a coke or shot them dead with a gun... you have committed an antisemitic act. This piece of logic seems very obvious to me.

  Given the example above, following your flawed reasoning,it takes us to a place where: I call the person that pushed a Jew out of line because he's Jewish antisemtic... but you interject saying "You can't call him antisemitic, it's not like he shot him dead with a gun". It should be totally clear, antisemitism is not a spectrum, but an act of antisemitism could be placed on a spectrum of vileness.

  With your two examples of sexism, you said:

  Are both of them sexist? Well strictly speaking they are but the same word hardly seems adequate for both of them.

  Yes the term sexist applies to both men. It is ill thought to use expressions like "he's a little bit sexist". Does that sound right with my example... "he's a little bit antisemitic". How does this sound... "He's not a really racist, he's just a little bit racist".

  Maybe I am doing you an injustice and I have the Cofty racism, sexism and homophobia spectra all wrong? How do you express it? "Oh, he's not really a racist, he's a nice racist"... how about "average racist". Do explain how we codify these so called spectra you have made up in your head.

  At one end we have people who genuinely think god disapproves of gay sex but they don't allow that to affect how they relate to gay people

  So I can only assume that you believe your quote above applies to the WTBS and IMO that is total BS pure 'n' simple. For example, would the society allow two openly gay brothers to enjoy a strictly platonic relationship or either of them to become an elder? Would the society attempt to 'encourage' them to keep their sexuality quiet or allow them to be themselves? Would the parents of a young adult encourage or discourage association with another young brother they knew was gay? To suggest that JW's do not allow their homophobia "to affect how they relate to gay people" is complete crap.

  I am not sure why we would use a definition of homophobia from an interest group like the ADL, but whatever floats your boat. If JW's do not 'fear' homosexuals why are they encouraged (directly or indirectly) to keep their sexuality a secret? Do you know of any openly gay elders, CO's or GB members? If there's nothing to fear we would expect to see some. Oh wait, perhaps would they be scared or 'fearful' of the consequences of actually accepting homosexual people in the organisation.

  Given that they believe the bible is authoritative in this matter what would you have them do or say?

  I expect them to change their interpretation of the bible.

  Once again, I'll ask rephrased for clarity. 'Cofty, STRICTLY SPEAKING (ie using the widely accepted definitions of homophobia) do you think the WBTS (falls into the BINARY homophobia spectrum (where 0 means not homophobic and 1 means homophobic) that would lead you to decide the organisation) is a homophobic organisation (or do you continue to excuse the WBTS from the label as they fall on your imaginary homophobia spectrum towards the "nice antigay" end'? A simple yes or no will do.

  
  
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  174

  Awake #4/2016: Homosexuality

  by Designer Stubble in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the new awake is up on jw.orgwith the legalization of gay marriage in many countries, they decided it was time to show: "what does thebible say about homosexuality?

  "does the bible promote prejudice?still, some people would say that the bible promotes prejudice against homosexuals and that those who adhere to itsmoral code are intolerant.

  ‘the bible was written at a time when people were narrow-minded,’ they claim.

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  M*A*S*H

  @ slimboyfat

  Thanks for the PEW link.

  Interestingly the tab regarding tolerance of homosexuality shows a jump of 12% in 2007 to 16% in 2014 of supposed Witnesses choosing the option 'homosexuality should be accepted' (a 33% jump). The mormons managed a 50% jump up 24% to 36%.
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  174

  Awake #4/2016: Homosexuality

  by Designer Stubble in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the new awake is up on jw.orgwith the legalization of gay marriage in many countries, they decided it was time to show: "what does thebible say about homosexuality?

  "does the bible promote prejudice?still, some people would say that the bible promotes prejudice against homosexuals and that those who adhere to itsmoral code are intolerant.

  ‘the bible was written at a time when people were narrow-minded,’ they claim.

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  M*A*S*H

  @Cofty. If you are not excusing anything why would you post this...

  If you label the Watchtower's position as hateful or homophobic how do you describe this...?

  Which is an attempt to say we should not label the WTBS as homophobic because they do not throw homosexuals from tall buildings. Then further evidence of 'excusing' WTBS you posted...

  My point is that characterising the Watchtower as hateful and homophobic seems a bit heavy in comparison.

  It seems pretty clear to me what you mean. But, once again, I'll ask. 'Cofty, do you think the WBTS is a homophobic organisation'? A simple yes or no will do.
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  174

  Awake #4/2016: Homosexuality

  by Designer Stubble in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the new awake is up on jw.orgwith the legalization of gay marriage in many countries, they decided it was time to show: "what does thebible say about homosexuality?

  "does the bible promote prejudice?still, some people would say that the bible promotes prejudice against homosexuals and that those who adhere to itsmoral code are intolerant.

  ‘the bible was written at a time when people were narrow-minded,’ they claim.

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  M*A*S*H

  I am going back on my word out of pure frustration with your last comment.

  1. Have "3 men who identify as gay ex-JWs" said the WBTS should not be labelled homophobic? As 'homophobic' is clearly the topic I have been discussing (if you are unsure feel free to read through my posts again as I have been very clear).

  2.

  As I have said above the bible condemns homosexuality. What do you expect them to say? The problem is with the bible.

  The problem is with the bible AND the problem is with the WBTS. How can you excuse this? You are basically acting as an apologist for the WBTS.

  3. Although I would not discount the opinion of the "3 men" you have identified, they are not the only ones with opinions that count posting on this forum and many of us have very strong opinions on this matter for a variety of reasons.

  So, Cofty, when considering what homophobic means and looking at the policies both written and unwritten of the WBTS... is it your opinion the WBTS should not be labelled homophobic? A simple yes\no will do there.
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  174

  Awake #4/2016: Homosexuality

  by Designer Stubble in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the new awake is up on jw.orgwith the legalization of gay marriage in many countries, they decided it was time to show: "what does thebible say about homosexuality?

  "does the bible promote prejudice?still, some people would say that the bible promotes prejudice against homosexuals and that those who adhere to itsmoral code are intolerant.

  ‘the bible was written at a time when people were narrow-minded,’ they claim.

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  M*A*S*H

  You said:

  2 hours ago

  If you label the Watchtower's position as hateful or homophobic how do you describe this...?

  The clear implication of the post is you should not label the WBTS homophobic because of the example of throwing gay people from buildings (a clear alternative disjunct fallacy).

  Would it be wrong to label the WBTS as misogynistic because in some countries women are living in far far worse conditions?

  I am sure your reasoning really resounds with those that happen to be gay and in the organisation. Children growing up gay fearful of losing their families if outed and living with the psychological scars of hearing how terrible and sinful they are. Adults condemned to closeted loveless lives destroying their identity causing depression and other cognitive issues. No doubt they would all agree with you saying "Don't you dare label the WTBS as homophobic... it's not like they will blindfold me and throw me from a building or anything".

  I wont respond to this again as the posts above speak for themselves, but feel free to put in the last word.
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  174

  Awake #4/2016: Homosexuality

  by Designer Stubble in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the new awake is up on jw.orgwith the legalization of gay marriage in many countries, they decided it was time to show: "what does thebible say about homosexuality?

  "does the bible promote prejudice?still, some people would say that the bible promotes prejudice against homosexuals and that those who adhere to itsmoral code are intolerant.

  ‘the bible was written at a time when people were narrow-minded,’ they claim.

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  M*A*S*H

  Hang on a minute... the WBTS is a homophobic organisation. You simply cannot argue to the contrary. The WBTS' homophobia is expressed through their negative treatment of gay people and just because they treat others badly does not excuse their actions.

  The WBTS play the usual trick of attempting to absolve themselves of the label 'homophobic' (to the public at least - example) by attempting to separate 'homosexuals' from 'homosexual conduct' and suggesting people can choose their sexual orientation.

  Nobody in their right mind could argue that the stance presented by the WBTS is designed to welcome homosexuals into their organisation - in fact, it is designed to give the appearance of toleration whilst actively discouraging the gay community.

  As most here are exJW, fading or doubters I am sure we are all capable of considering the following scenarios which would test the limits of the so called tolerance of homosexuals.

  • 1. An openly gay (but not sexually active) brother asks to be considered to be a ministerial servant or join the service school.
  • 2. Could two openly gay brothers sit next to each other at the meetings?
  • 3. Could an openly gay brother go door to door or conduct a bible study?
  • 4. Would the WTBS encourage a gay brother or sister to be open and honest about their sexual orientation in the congregation... or alternatively would they encourage them to keep it quiet.
  • (4. Interestingly, if a gay brother went on the field service would they place them with a man or women!?)
  • 5. A CO or elder confesses to being gay (even if they are not in a sexual relationship) would he be allowed to continue in the post?

  Basically it is not just homosexual activity that is looked down upon by the WTBS, it is in fact people that are gay. Personally I think it is clear the WTBS is homophobic.

  @Cofty, your post is a clearly attempting to slip a fallacy of the alternative disjunct through the backdoor and IMHO I expected better from you. Basically you are attempting to suggest the label homophobic should only be applied to those that throw homosexuals from buildings.
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  171

  RC 2016 Leaks & Releases

  by wifibandit in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in an effort to reduce the number of posts, this year i will try to add links to this post.

  now, on with the leaks & releases!

  first up.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nzvwhflss4.

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  M*A*S*H

  Not exactly Game of Thrones. I'm looking forward to when that mob I can hear in the background find them... baseball bats v literature carts.