Who are "eunuchs who were born that way"?Matthew 19
10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”
11 Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”
M*A*S*H
JoinedPosts by M*A*S*H
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174
Awake #4/2016: Homosexuality
by Designer Stubble inthe new awake is up on jw.orgwith the legalization of gay marriage in many countries, they decided it was time to show: "what does thebible say about homosexuality?
"does the bible promote prejudice?still, some people would say that the bible promotes prejudice against homosexuals and that those who adhere to itsmoral code are intolerant.
‘the bible was written at a time when people were narrow-minded,’ they claim.
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M*A*S*H
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174
Awake #4/2016: Homosexuality
by Designer Stubble inthe new awake is up on jw.orgwith the legalization of gay marriage in many countries, they decided it was time to show: "what does thebible say about homosexuality?
"does the bible promote prejudice?still, some people would say that the bible promotes prejudice against homosexuals and that those who adhere to itsmoral code are intolerant.
‘the bible was written at a time when people were narrow-minded,’ they claim.
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M*A*S*H
I think you are right, western internet forums will probably have featured more discussions regarding the recent JW cartoon than the murder of homosexuals by ISIS. I do not think the reason for this is racism or people getting "a kick out of public displays of outrage". Sure some SJWs fall into this bracket, but I very much doubt it explains the issue.
Some of the reasons why I personally think we see this issue:
- I would be more inclined to post here (or on other forums) if the issue at hand directly effects my own community. I do not think that makes me racist. Just like I would probably post more regarding 'JW shunning' rather than 'Catholic Excommunication'... that does not mean I value the people's suffering differently.
- Nobody questions if throwing homosexuals from buildings is wrong, so what discussion is there to have? I think and hope almost everybody would agree!
- Western media outlets cover the ISIS story fully, the JW cartoon is not.
- In the West various religions attempt to sneak homophobia through the backdoor by attempting to dress their homophobic views up as non-homophobic. When people see this type of double speak I think they are likely to call it out.
- I think people living in Western countries expect equal rights for gay people. When they see homophobia in their own community they are very likely to react. I do not think this is a show of racism toward gay communities abroad.
In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends. [Martin Luther King, Jr.]
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174
Awake #4/2016: Homosexuality
by Designer Stubble inthe new awake is up on jw.orgwith the legalization of gay marriage in many countries, they decided it was time to show: "what does thebible say about homosexuality?
"does the bible promote prejudice?still, some people would say that the bible promotes prejudice against homosexuals and that those who adhere to itsmoral code are intolerant.
‘the bible was written at a time when people were narrow-minded,’ they claim.
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M*A*S*H
@Cofty.
If you stopped typing for a moment you would see that I am addressing the limitations of pedantic definitions and trying to lead you towards a more interesting conversation.
What's that I smell? Oh yes... it's arrogance
Your only interest seems to be in throwing around insults and playing to the gallery.
I have no interest in the "playing to the gallery". I rarely post, over the last 10 years of being on this forum I have posted 324 times. You clearly do not have any clue what you are talking about.
Do you have something more thoughtful to ask apart from your crowd-pleasing displays of faux outrage?
Yes Cofty you are the diviner of posters' motivations. You with all your wisdom can identify when a poster is not really outraged. Not only that, my efforts to demonstrate the WBTS is homophobic and deserving of the label is not 'thoughtful' enough for the mighty Cofty.
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174
Awake #4/2016: Homosexuality
by Designer Stubble inthe new awake is up on jw.orgwith the legalization of gay marriage in many countries, they decided it was time to show: "what does thebible say about homosexuality?
"does the bible promote prejudice?still, some people would say that the bible promotes prejudice against homosexuals and that those who adhere to itsmoral code are intolerant.
‘the bible was written at a time when people were narrow-minded,’ they claim.
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M*A*S*H
@Cofty, if I am misrepresenting your views please explain why you are struggling to call a spade a spade. The WBTS is homophobic.
It's nice to see you now attempting to take the high moral ground after your ad hominem straw man post above accusing me of being puerile.
I think anyone reading my first post on this topic will see the truth of this matter.
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174
Awake #4/2016: Homosexuality
by Designer Stubble inthe new awake is up on jw.orgwith the legalization of gay marriage in many countries, they decided it was time to show: "what does thebible say about homosexuality?
"does the bible promote prejudice?still, some people would say that the bible promotes prejudice against homosexuals and that those who adhere to itsmoral code are intolerant.
‘the bible was written at a time when people were narrow-minded,’ they claim.
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M*A*S*H
@Cofty.
Here are some examples of you NOT discussing semantics with me? I think there's one from each post you made directed to me. This is your way of not showing an interest in semantics.
If you label the Watchtower's position as hateful or homophobic how do you describe this...?
My point is that characterising the Watchtower as hateful and homophobic seems a bit heavy in comparison.
Actually 3 men who identify as gay ex-JWs have said in the last couple of days that it is a mistake to label the Watchtower's position on homosexuality as hateful.
All three are morally bad. All three are also subject to degrees of error.
Pointing out that one bad thing is not as bad as another bad thing is not the same as saying the first bad thing isn't bad.
Sexism, racism and homophobia are all on a spectrum and how you apply dictionary definitions in the real world is subjective.Are both of them sexist? Well strictly speaking they are but the same word hardly seems adequate for both of them.
By that definition no the Watchtower are not homophobic. Other dictionaries define the word in ways that would encompass the position of the cult.
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174
Awake #4/2016: Homosexuality
by Designer Stubble inthe new awake is up on jw.orgwith the legalization of gay marriage in many countries, they decided it was time to show: "what does thebible say about homosexuality?
"does the bible promote prejudice?still, some people would say that the bible promotes prejudice against homosexuals and that those who adhere to itsmoral code are intolerant.
‘the bible was written at a time when people were narrow-minded,’ they claim.
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M*A*S*H
@Cofty.
I would humbly like to offer another reason for my posting to this topic. One perhaps you failed to add into your pathetic straw man post above.
I really dislike idiots that attempt to excuse homophobic religious organisations and I find their pathetic attempts to rationalise such homophobic actions as offensive.
In the main, I agree with you and your previous posts especially on evolution, science, etc... and probably on much of your world view. This only makes your post above look even more intellectually retarded, a clear bowing out with an ad hominem parting shot.
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174
Awake #4/2016: Homosexuality
by Designer Stubble inthe new awake is up on jw.orgwith the legalization of gay marriage in many countries, they decided it was time to show: "what does thebible say about homosexuality?
"does the bible promote prejudice?still, some people would say that the bible promotes prejudice against homosexuals and that those who adhere to itsmoral code are intolerant.
‘the bible was written at a time when people were narrow-minded,’ they claim.
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M*A*S*H
@Cofty. Well that's pretty funny. Your last post is a straw man argument from start to finish! -
174
Awake #4/2016: Homosexuality
by Designer Stubble inthe new awake is up on jw.orgwith the legalization of gay marriage in many countries, they decided it was time to show: "what does thebible say about homosexuality?
"does the bible promote prejudice?still, some people would say that the bible promotes prejudice against homosexuals and that those who adhere to itsmoral code are intolerant.
‘the bible was written at a time when people were narrow-minded,’ they claim.
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M*A*S*H
@Cofty.
You only seem to be interested in semantics.
What a ridiculous thing to say! The whole discussion is about semantics, we are discussing the meaning of the label homophobic (and others). Please do enlighten me, how one would go about discussing this without being interested in semantics?
Your lengthy response added more heat than light.
My lengthy response demonstrated;- You attempted to excuse the WBTS from the label of homophobic
- You do not understand the difference between an ism and spectrum, that isms can fit on a spectrum but an ism is not spectrum.
- I lampooned your silly idea that the ism's we discussed are in fact spectra
- I gave a good account of why your idea that JW's do not allow their homophobia to "affect how they relate to gay people" is BS
- I demonstrated why the definition of homophobia you gave from the ADL does fit the WBTS.
You now have now further acted as a WTBS apologist from your last post.
"Their teachings lead to self-loathing."
The bible does that.
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174
Awake #4/2016: Homosexuality
by Designer Stubble inthe new awake is up on jw.orgwith the legalization of gay marriage in many countries, they decided it was time to show: "what does thebible say about homosexuality?
"does the bible promote prejudice?still, some people would say that the bible promotes prejudice against homosexuals and that those who adhere to itsmoral code are intolerant.
‘the bible was written at a time when people were narrow-minded,’ they claim.
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M*A*S*H
@sparrowdown. The fact that we all know what you mean by 'non-practicing gay' I find quite shameful. But, be careful, those that encourage homosexuals to be 'non-practicing' should not be labelled homophobic.
I am not sure where on the new 'homophobic spectrum' we would place organisations that demand homosexuals to be 'non-practicing'... but I have a stab. I think we should label such organisations:
'I can't believe believe it's not homophobic (now with no added hatred)'
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174
Awake #4/2016: Homosexuality
by Designer Stubble inthe new awake is up on jw.orgwith the legalization of gay marriage in many countries, they decided it was time to show: "what does thebible say about homosexuality?
"does the bible promote prejudice?still, some people would say that the bible promotes prejudice against homosexuals and that those who adhere to itsmoral code are intolerant.
‘the bible was written at a time when people were narrow-minded,’ they claim.
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M*A*S*H
Pointing out that one bad thing is not as bad as another bad thing is not the same as saying the first bad thing isn't bad. This piece of logic seems very obvious to me.
@Cofty
Yes that logic is obvious. However without wanting to copy and paste what you wrote for a third time, that is not what you said. You attempted to excuse the WBTS from the label of homophobic by implying the label homophobic should only be applied to those shoving homosexuals from tall buildings. This piece of logic seems very obvious to me.
Sexism, racism and homophobia are all on a spectrum
The acts which demonstrate sexism, racism and homophobia could be placed on a spectrum. However, the terms sexism, racism and homophobia are NOT spectra.
To add another ism to the pot... if you discriminate or demonstrate hatred against Jewish people because they are Jewish, you are an antisemite. It does not matter if you pushed them out of line queuing for a coke or shot them dead with a gun... you have committed an antisemitic act. This piece of logic seems very obvious to me.
Given the example above, following your flawed reasoning,it takes us to a place where: I call the person that pushed a Jew out of line because he's Jewish antisemtic... but you interject saying "You can't call him antisemitic, it's not like he shot him dead with a gun". It should be totally clear, antisemitism is not a spectrum, but an act of antisemitism could be placed on a spectrum of vileness.
With your two examples of sexism, you said:
Are both of them sexist? Well strictly speaking they are but the same word hardly seems adequate for both of them.
Yes the term sexist applies to both men. It is ill thought to use expressions like "he's a little bit sexist". Does that sound right with my example... "he's a little bit antisemitic". How does this sound... "He's not a really racist, he's just a little bit racist".
Maybe I am doing you an injustice and I have the Cofty racism, sexism and homophobia spectra all wrong? How do you express it? "Oh, he's not really a racist, he's a nice racist"... how about "average racist". Do explain how we codify these so called spectra you have made up in your head.
At one end we have people who genuinely think god disapproves of gay sex but they don't allow that to affect how they relate to gay people
So I can only assume that you believe your quote above applies to the WTBS and IMO that is total BS pure 'n' simple. For example, would the society allow two openly gay brothers to enjoy a strictly platonic relationship or either of them to become an elder? Would the society attempt to 'encourage' them to keep their sexuality quiet or allow them to be themselves? Would the parents of a young adult encourage or discourage association with another young brother they knew was gay? To suggest that JW's do not allow their homophobia "to affect how they relate to gay people" is complete crap.
I am not sure why we would use a definition of homophobia from an interest group like the ADL, but whatever floats your boat. If JW's do not 'fear' homosexuals why are they encouraged (directly or indirectly) to keep their sexuality a secret? Do you know of any openly gay elders, CO's or GB members? If there's nothing to fear we would expect to see some. Oh wait, perhaps would they be scared or 'fearful' of the consequences of actually accepting homosexual people in the organisation.
Given that they believe the bible is authoritative in this matter what would you have them do or say?
I expect them to change their interpretation of the bible.
Once again, I'll ask rephrased for clarity. 'Cofty, STRICTLY SPEAKING (ie using the widely accepted definitions of homophobia) do you think the WBTS (falls into the BINARY homophobia spectrum (where 0 means not homophobic and 1 means homophobic) that would lead you to decide the organisation) is a homophobic organisation (or do you continue to excuse the WBTS from the label as they fall on your imaginary homophobia spectrum towards the "nice antigay" end'? A simple yes or no will do.