i've got a really good collection of wts literature that i've been working on since the 1960s.
one book i have is a copy of poems of the dawn, copyright 1912, leatherbound.. it's inscribed thus: "eleanor a. shires - a gift from pastor russell - xmas 1911".
the cover is in rough shape, but the pages are perfect.
I would be interested in knowing more about the Watchtower Farms as well. Although the prices are less than what the originals would cost on Ebay, a few of the books can be purchased for much less money from some of the Bible Student groups. Quite a few of these books can now be viewed online for free.
Steve
i've got a really good collection of wts literature that i've been working on since the 1960s.
one book i have is a copy of poems of the dawn, copyright 1912, leatherbound.. it's inscribed thus: "eleanor a. shires - a gift from pastor russell - xmas 1911".
the cover is in rough shape, but the pages are perfect.
I would like to see a scan of the book also.
Steve
i've got a really good collection of wts literature that i've been working on since the 1960s.
one book i have is a copy of poems of the dawn, copyright 1912, leatherbound.. it's inscribed thus: "eleanor a. shires - a gift from pastor russell - xmas 1911".
the cover is in rough shape, but the pages are perfect.
Years ago, I saw an early edition, maybe even the first edition, of this book. The authors of many poems were indicated by name in the index in the back of the book. Maria Russell's name appeared as an author for several. Do these names appear in the 1912 edition? Or were they omitted? Maria Russell played a large role in this book, but 1912 was after their divorce trial.
There is a poem called "The True Church." It is one of the longest poems. The character is looking for the one true church and asks a Pilgrim ( who is actually Jesus) for the way. The Pilgrim answers,"the one true church is never found." They visit various church buildings, and attend church services, but the Pilgrim points out each church's failings. At the end the searcher recognizes it is Jesus, who tells him instead to seek "the one true Christ, its head."
This poem reflects the anti-church, anti-organization stance of the Russell period. However, although the seeker perhaps was wrong to look for the one true church, expecting perfection in this life, he yet did not have an answer for what church he should join. This poem is effective, yet leaves me unsatisfied. Certainly there is a middle ground between looking for one true church and communing alone with Christ, and although there might not be one true church, there could many that would be acceptable. I can't help but think that this black/white perspective on churches caused Russell and his followers to be naive about their own dark side. They thought they had left Babylon and lived in freedom apart from all human organizations, yet human society cannot seem to function without the social groups and organizations.
Steve
was rutherford a good lawyer?.
this is a question i have asked myself several times.. the facts are tha rutherford took a course in shorthand, and worked in a law office for a time, and then became a lawyer (passed the bar) by passing an oral examination given by a panel of lawyers.. does that qualify for an education in law?.
rutherford, as it is well know, filled in for the travelling circuit judge a few times, for a total of four days.. years later it was published that rutherford was a member of the "new york bar", but there is a question if that group even existed.. there is no record that i know of indicating rutherford ever won a case in court of law.. when ct russell sued the brooklyn daily eagle for libel over a cartoon of him that they published, another lawyer instead of rutherford was used (although rutherford was there and involved in the case, he just was no the lead lawyer).
In 1882, the books were open for inspection. From ZWT Reprints, page 313:
To all whose donations have been over one hundred dollars, we have made special reports, and to any donor the books are always open for inspection.
use of 1 enoch elsewhere in jude.
jude 4 = 1 enoch 48:8-10, 81:1-2, 108:6-7 .
jude 6 = 1 enoch 10:4-12, 12:4, 15:3-7 .
BIBLE--Re Its Inspiration.
::Q41:3:: QUESTION
(1911)--3--Do you believe in the inspiration of the Bible?
ANSWER.
--I do believe in the inspiration of the Bible.
BIBLE--Infallibility.
::Q41:4:: QUESTION
(1911)--4--Do you believe the Bible infallible?
ANSWER
.--I believe the Bible as God gave it is without error. It would not he grammatical to say that the Bible is infallible. I will say that the Bible is unerring. Only a person can be infallible, you know, and I will make the explanation here that there are passages in the common version of the Bible that are not in the old manuscripts of the Bible, and some of these passages have caused confusion.
BIBLE--Re Being Without Error.
::Q42:1:: QUESTION
(1911)--1--Do you believe the Bible absolutely devoid of error?
ANSWER
.--There are certain parts of the Bible that are purely historical. The Books of `Kings` and `Chronicles` and the books of `Matthew`, `Mark`, `Luke` and `John`, are purely historical, and there is no particular need of inspiration in regard to these, unless it would be that divine providence would guide them so that they would not leave out what should be in. But where a history is written, it is not of necessity that it should be inspired, because all truth is good. If Saint Matthew, for instance, wrote that Jesus said thus and so, he is merely telling what he heard, what he knew to be the facts. He did not need to be inspired to tell the truth, any more than you need to be inspired to go out of here and tell what I have said: you should tell it straight; so there is no need of any inspiration about it. Now, I would say there are passages in `Kings` and `Chronicles` where evidently an error has been made. These are historical books, and there are little slips somewhere in the way the thing has been recorded. Both books cover the same period of time, but one gives it a little different from the other. We may see some day just how they can be harmonized, but at present we do not.
use of 1 enoch elsewhere in jude.
jude 4 = 1 enoch 48:8-10, 81:1-2, 108:6-7 .
jude 6 = 1 enoch 10:4-12, 12:4, 15:3-7 .
peacefulpete writes: Russell interestingly however actually made statements to the effect that there are 'errors in the Bible'. Quite surprising for an adventist. Since Russell, the WT has subtly admitted the same but would never come out and say it for fear it's members would take an interest in higher critism and come away with a more educated view of the Bible
Question: Where does Russell says that there are errors in the Bible? Can someone verify this? peacefulpete?
Steve
was rutherford a good lawyer?.
this is a question i have asked myself several times.. the facts are tha rutherford took a course in shorthand, and worked in a law office for a time, and then became a lawyer (passed the bar) by passing an oral examination given by a panel of lawyers.. does that qualify for an education in law?.
rutherford, as it is well know, filled in for the travelling circuit judge a few times, for a total of four days.. years later it was published that rutherford was a member of the "new york bar", but there is a question if that group even existed.. there is no record that i know of indicating rutherford ever won a case in court of law.. when ct russell sued the brooklyn daily eagle for libel over a cartoon of him that they published, another lawyer instead of rutherford was used (although rutherford was there and involved in the case, he just was no the lead lawyer).
Regarding the books:
There was a post on the forum, quoting Maria Russell, that she never got to see the financial records while she was Secy/Treasurer of the Society. (Her husband Charles must have seen them however). As I recall, one complaint that ones on the Board had after Russell's death, was that they were not permitted to see the financial records. (Perhaps this can be verified). My memory is not very clear, but it seems Rutherford would not let them see them unless they resigned.
VanAmburgh must have let Russell see them. Rutherford must have seen them. But it looks very suspicious for a business corporation, especially doing religious work, and selling books in the millions, not to show their financial records to the Board or to the public. Russell certainly was highly competent when it came to money, and knew how to save, spend, invest it. He could easily have been a millionaire in his day. Probably no one on the Board could have had more financial sense than he did. Yet he seemed to be ignorant of the impression that this financial secretiveness gave to the public - that he was using religion as a money-making scheme.
Steve
was rutherford a good lawyer?.
this is a question i have asked myself several times.. the facts are tha rutherford took a course in shorthand, and worked in a law office for a time, and then became a lawyer (passed the bar) by passing an oral examination given by a panel of lawyers.. does that qualify for an education in law?.
rutherford, as it is well know, filled in for the travelling circuit judge a few times, for a total of four days.. years later it was published that rutherford was a member of the "new york bar", but there is a question if that group even existed.. there is no record that i know of indicating rutherford ever won a case in court of law.. when ct russell sued the brooklyn daily eagle for libel over a cartoon of him that they published, another lawyer instead of rutherford was used (although rutherford was there and involved in the case, he just was no the lead lawyer).
Thank you for the quotations concerning Rutherford, and I have now read them. I am well aware Rutherford had been a Pilgrim. However, in order to check out this rumor about Rutherford in 1916 (which has come up before in previous threads), I checked several issues of ZWT in 1916, and failed to see pilgrim notices for Rutherford in that year, 1916. Again, I did not check every issue, and I certainly could have missed seeing them. I was looking to see where Rutherford might have been living, or doing, at that time.
I also am not sure that the Rutherford in England that are in the quotes from your post is Joseph Rutherford. This has been questioned before on this forum. Was there a different Bro. Rutherford in England? I don't know. Has anyone checked this out, and can verify this?
I was not aware that Rutherford had acted as a stenographer. I had thought that Malcolm his son had served as Russell's stenographer. But Rutherford did travel on that world tour in 1910, so the Rutherford referred to then must be Joseph Rutherford.
No doubt Rutherford was one of the prominent Bible Students, but not pre-eminent. Russell had not appointed a successor, and no one at that time was acknowledged as second to Russell. He was no doubt better qualified than many, if not most, and very likely was still in good standing with Russell when died. It would be interesting, though, if the contrary rumor could be confirmed.
You write: I think initially Rutherford was sincere and later the desire for prominence and power eventually corrupted him and played into his character flaws (like Anakin Skywalker).
I believe Anakin turned into Darth Vader. Are you making that comparison as well? If so, what point in time marked Rutherford's fall?
Steve
was rutherford a good lawyer?.
this is a question i have asked myself several times.. the facts are tha rutherford took a course in shorthand, and worked in a law office for a time, and then became a lawyer (passed the bar) by passing an oral examination given by a panel of lawyers.. does that qualify for an education in law?.
rutherford, as it is well know, filled in for the travelling circuit judge a few times, for a total of four days.. years later it was published that rutherford was a member of the "new york bar", but there is a question if that group even existed.. there is no record that i know of indicating rutherford ever won a case in court of law.. when ct russell sued the brooklyn daily eagle for libel over a cartoon of him that they published, another lawyer instead of rutherford was used (although rutherford was there and involved in the case, he just was no the lead lawyer).
I recently examined some original ZWT issues from the year 1916, but failed to see any pilgrim notices for Rutherford, although I did not examine every issue of that year and could have missed them. Rutherford wrote his Ecclesiastical Battle defending Russell (1915?), and engaged in the debate with Troy in 1915(?), and his name was still listed on Russell's Will, I don't remember whether for the Board or Editorial Committee. He was the chairman of the Los Angeles Convention in the year 1916 shortly before Russell's death. One could conclude that Rutherford was still in good graces with Russell, however there is no sign that Russell had anointed him as his successor, nor for that matter, anyone. Russell expected the time before the kingdom to be very short, a year or two, until perhaps 1918. He likely did not consider appointing a successor necessary, and that his WIll and Testament was sufficient considering his expectations of the impending Armageddon, glorification of the church, and the establishment of the kingdom.
However, it appears that Rutherford was living in California at the time of Russell's death. How long had he been living there? Is there any information on how he got there? Did he live at Bethel before then? What was the circumstances of his departure? Even if the Bible Student information is true, it doesn't necessary mean that Russell dismissed Rutherford.
Steve
was rutherford a good lawyer?.
this is a question i have asked myself several times.. the facts are tha rutherford took a course in shorthand, and worked in a law office for a time, and then became a lawyer (passed the bar) by passing an oral examination given by a panel of lawyers.. does that qualify for an education in law?.
rutherford, as it is well know, filled in for the travelling circuit judge a few times, for a total of four days.. years later it was published that rutherford was a member of the "new york bar", but there is a question if that group even existed.. there is no record that i know of indicating rutherford ever won a case in court of law.. when ct russell sued the brooklyn daily eagle for libel over a cartoon of him that they published, another lawyer instead of rutherford was used (although rutherford was there and involved in the case, he just was no the lead lawyer).
Well then, if Ray Franz said that Rutherford died in his bed, I would believe him.
Rutherford must have been an imposing figure. Wasn't he tall? Over 6 feet, I believe. I think his leadership style was heavily influenced by Southern politics. He was involved in politics before joining Russell's movement. He must have been a good speaker, or even orator, so he has that is in his favor, at least.
Russell and Rutherford make an interesting character contrast. Even the JWs themselves, in the Divine Purpose book I believe, note that the two had differing personalities. I don't think there is any dispute that of the two, Russell was the more likable.
As a previous poster stated, Russell was charismatic. He was winsome, a good salesman, which was probably developed in his young years by working in the clothing retail business, and a good businessman and investor. He was invited by the Jews to speak on their behalf, which he did on several occasions. There were thousands in attendance. Perhaps the Jews considered it to be a "media event" and hoped to draw on Pastor Russell's name, but it shows that he was a celebrity at the time. Whatever one might think of Zionism, it to his Russell's credit that he was willing to address and speak on behalf of a religion other than his own without attempts at conversion, and be able to address them without offending them. He must have been a charming and attractive person.
He was canonized by his followers after his death, and Rutherford participated in that canonization. However, in the eyes of others he was a pious fraud. How much of a dark side did Russell have? Was the sainthood a veneer? I would like to believe Russell was well-intentioned and did much good, but yet as a visionary deceived himself, was naive, and could stretch the truth in devotion to his cause, and was overly confident and self-righteous in his own opinions.
His leadership of the Society was a one-man monopoly, and as a religious leader he yet handled a great deal of money, which looked suspect. However, since by the age of 30 he had developed a chain of five clothing stores, worth $300, 000, he probably thought he was the best qualified, and he likely was.
He ran the Society autocratically, yet at the time that functioned more as a business. He allowed the churches to have a great deal of freedom and democracy, and they elected their own elders and officers. Yet they considered him "that servant" and willingly gave him much power. Russell in his will wished for the Society to be run democratically by a Board of Directors and an Editorial Committee. However, he did not prepare them during his lifetime for this role, did not prepare them for independence from authority, and perhaps were thus vulnerable to an autocratic leader less benevolent and enlightened than he was. There is no sign that he anointed a successor, least of all Rutherford. How much was Russell responsible for what occurred after his death? How much did Russell prepare for the way for Rutherford? Since the ecclesias at that time were democratically run, it took Rutherford up until about 1930 to finally be able to get them under his control. There were ecclesias that left en masse because they were not willing to give up their freedom to Rutherford. At least half of the Bible Students left. The early Bible Student movement in their attempt to appeal to the public had softened their stance against the churches, and with endeavors like the Photo Drama and the consolidation of the London churches into the largest church in England and the world, were moving toward respectability and could have gone mainstream. However, that changed with 1914 and Russell's death, and the stance against the churches and society hardened and became more vocal and negative, and sectarian. When Russell died, a power vacuum was created, which Rutherford filled. Russell in some ways unfortunately made Rutherford possible which Rutherford exploited, yet he also made provisions to protect the Society and the ecclesias. Rutherford fought his way for years against obstacles to establish a theocracy, which he controlled as a ruthless dictator. Russell might have created the conditions, but ultimately Rutherford was responsible for his actions.
Steve
