Posts by stev

7

Non Trinitarian religions at the time of Russel?

by restrangled in

jw
friends

is there a link or does some one have info on this?

for an answer to my mom on a chosen religion by christ.

her argument was russel was the closet to the bible based on that.. i was too tired and involved with ancestrty stuff to listen.. sorry if this has been covered before.

stev

Although there were Unitarians that predate Russell, the origins of the non-Trinitarianism of Adventism came directly from the Christian Connection ( which later merged with the United Church of Christ). Many from Christian Connection became Millerites and brought their Arianism with them. Russell likely got his Arian views from George Stetson, who wrote a series of articles about the Ransom around the year 1872, in which he wrote that Jesus was a perfect man, a corresponding price to Adam, and had three different natures, pre-human, human, and post-human. Russell's view of the Ransom conflicted with the Trinity. George Storrs was ambigious on the Trinity, preferring to stick to Biblical language, but held similar ransom beliefs, but not as well defined as Stetson.

There were similar ransom views among the Adventists, and Stetson was likely not the only one to attempt to explain the theory of salvation in non-trinitarian, Arian terms. One is J. M. Stephenson (search online). Arianism was prevalent among the Adventists at that time, and openly espoused. However, SDA officially adopted the Trinity in the 20th century, as did the Advent Christian Church, and Herbert Armstrong's group Church of God. The Church of God 7th, an Adventist group, recently adopted a binitarian view. The Church of God of the Abrahamic Faith are non-Trinitarian, but are not Arian since they deny the pre-existence of Christ, influenced by the Christadelphians.

Russell's views are similar to unorthodox Christians in England around the time of Isaac Newton, John Milton, Biddle, William Whiston, with their date-setting, apocalypticism, Arianism, conditional immortality, annihilationism.

12

Looking for Rose Ball's grave

by Doug Mason in

does anyone know where rose ball henninges is buried?

i know she died in 1950, aged 81, in preston, victoria, australia, but i have drawn a blank looking for her headstone.

i have already asked the henninges people here, and they could not help me.

stev

According to the death certificate:

Rose Ball was 81 years old at the time of her death in 1950. That would place her birth around the year 1869. She would be around 19 years when she arrived to work for the Watchtower around the year 1889, which would confirm Maria Russell's account.

However according to the death certificate:

Rose Ball was 25 years old when she was married. This would be around the year 1894/1895, which would be too early. As I remember, she was not married until 1897 or 1898. She was also married in New York, not Allegheny.

Who married them? Was it Charles T. Russell or someone else?

25

Another example of WT coverup!!!! Proof of Deciept!!!!! And why it matters.

by Lady Liberty in

many new ones or lurkers may not know this but charles russell was not the first wt president like they teach!

who cares you may say?

well if i showed you where they acknowledged this in 1993, but as recent as 2001 they were still printing he was, would that not be valuable to you to show others the watchtowers deliberate deciept??

stev

Much of early history of the Adventists, and early WT, Bible Students is obscure. The documents are rare. The groups associated with Russell for the most part were tiny and were not interested in leaving historical landmarks for us internet historians. They thought the time on earth was very brief. We can find more documents on the internet on one hour than most Bible Students/JWs could have found in the last 100 years. Russell's early associates like Conley and others, parted company, and went their separate ways. With the separations, the information got lost, just like geneological data gets lost with family separations. No coverup here, just ignorance of the facts.

Conley was a financial benefactor to Russell, was an early associate of Russell, perhaps Conley introduced Russell to Adventists or Adventist literature in the early 1870s. Russell as editor probably exercised more power than Conley as President. Conley had a business to attend to, was President because he contributed the most. He only was involved for a 1,2,3 years at the most and then left.

25

Another example of WT coverup!!!! Proof of Deciept!!!!! And why it matters.

by Lady Liberty in

many new ones or lurkers may not know this but charles russell was not the first wt president like they teach!

who cares you may say?

well if i showed you where they acknowledged this in 1993, but as recent as 2001 they were still printing he was, would that not be valuable to you to show others the watchtowers deliberate deciept??

stev

Since Conley was wealthy, he had the most shares and therefore was President, but it is likely that Russell even from the beginning because he was Editor had the more authority. Russell's money was tied up in his business and was not liquid. Conley perhaps donated much money to the cause, and perhaps after 1881 became disappointed that the rapture had not taken place and more followers had come in, and lost interest. By 1884, the corporation was felt to be necessary because some might be glorified first and leave the earth but the others would be left to continue the work, so the corporation. Russell had sold his business and had more money to buy shares.

Conley later had ties with the Presbyterian Church and/or Christian Missionary Alliance, yet wrote Russell the letter in 1894. This is somewhat strange, also mentions the no-ransom people - this probably refers to John H Paton, who parted company with Russell in 1881, "denied the ransom" but engaged in paper wars with Russell and shared a common readership.

Perhaps Conley acted as a spiritual mentor or guide for Russell in his youth, and they parted spiritual company but yet remained amicable.

There is not enough known about Conley to constitute a coverup. This is a case of early JW history that has become lost and obscure.

7

THOUSANDS OF MILLENIAL DAWN BOOKS produced with a female pseudonym

by badboy in

jw
friends

i understand that thousands of copies of above book were produced back in 1880s/1890s with a female pseudonym.. why was that?.

stev

See "A Conspiracy Exposed" 1894. There is a link to a PDF file in one of the threads here if you do a search.

13

Which of the two was Not Baptized? Russell or Franz

by golf2 in

jw
friends

.

i would appreciate it if someone could answer the above question with certainty.

golf

stev

Russell was baptized in 1874, according to the testimony of his sister in a Convention Report, as I remember in 1906. I have heard that George Storrs might have been the one to baptize him.

25

Millerite Adventism and Fred Franz

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

a gem from barbara anderson:.

http://www.freeminds.org/women/barbara_anderson.htm.

millerite adventism and fred franz.

stev

A direct connection between Franz and the Millerite movement isn't proven here. Franz might have had books on Millerite Movement, but it isn't proven that the expression "dumb dogs" occurs in one of Franz's books, or that Franz read it. The expression "dumb dogs" occurs in the Bible. I recall reading this expression in the WatchTowers from the Russell era, as well as from the Convention Reports. A google search shows that others have used it too to apply to Doctors of Divinity.

Russell in several places speaks favorably of the Millerite Movement in his explanation of the parable of the virgins when they first went out to meet the bridegroom. He applied the 1290 days prophecy to the beginning of Miller's preaching in 1829 ( a incorrect date-it was 1831). Also the 2300 days cleansing of the sanctuary to the post-Millerite movement in 1846. Franz might have had these books on the Millerite Movement for these reasons.

Nelson Barbour had been a Millerite in the 1844 movement, he reapplied some of Miller's interpretations to later years such as 1873/4, and then Russell got it from Barbour, and then made corrections himself. So if there is connection it is from MIller-Barbour-Russell-Franz.

65

Russell's Gravesite Pictures - (just got back from Pittsburgh)

by thecarpenter in

well folks, got back from my trip to see russell's grave site.

it was quite a interesting experience and sobering to see the pyramid right by his tombstone.

i'm kind of tired and will be hitting the sack soon but i wanted to post a few pictures.

stev

Although the pyramid there looks like the Great Pyramid, it doesn't represent the Great Pyramid, but to the Bible Students it would represent the Christ Head and Body. The capstone at the top would represent Jesus as the Head, and the rest of the pyramid, the Church. The Bible Students at that time believed that those faithful who died would be immediately changed and be present and united with the rest of the resurrected Church. Hence "risen with Christ". The cross and crown - represents that the Church must endure suffering before they are glorified. Those who were faithful would have their names written in the book of life, as found in the Book of Revelation. The chapter on the Hidden Mystery in the Divine Plan of the Ages has an illustration of a pyramid, and an explanation of it. Also Chart of the Ages has pyramids, and there is a chapter explaining the meaning of the pyramid.

The Bible Students would never have thought of the Masons, this symbolism was well known by the Bible Students, who would have read the Divine Plan of the Ages. Russell taught that in the parable of the Wheat and the Tares, the bundling of the tares represents human organizations, including secret societies such as the Masons. Russell encouraged leaving all human organizations not only the churches of that time, but even unions if possible. Russell was extremely anti-organization, and the harvest of the wheat would have required the separation from the tares, and separating from organizations as much as possible. Russell's followers thought of themselves as the wheat, and being part of the Masons would have been frowned on and put in doubt their being of the wheat.

The Watchtower Society put the pyramid there and not dissident Bible Students. However, no matter how wrong Russell or the Bible Students might have been at that time, no matter how wrong how their interest in the Great Pyramid was, or the political motives that Rutherford might have had in putting it up, nevertheless they built it in honor of other human beings who had died or would die, and shows that they at least cared. It is unfortunate that those who are justly angry and hurt at religious abuse would let that override their sense of our common humanity. Mocking the dead and the bereaved is in poor taste as an argument of ridicule when despite our religious differences we will all die and lose people in death.

3

fanciful men who are frequently predicting the time of the end,

by candidlynuts in

jw
friends

has this article been posted yet?

isaac newton 300 years ago predicting the worlds end at 2060 or there about.. what this does for me is add weight to the idea that every generation has looked for the end in their time.

the jw's are just more in a long line of end timers.

stev

Newton was without doubt highly intelligent, perhaps one of the most intelligent to ever walk the planet. He uncovered some of the deep secrets of the universe. It is the intelligent and curious and confident who are often tempted to try to solve the time prophecies in the Bible, to try to figure out when Christ will return, even though there is no time prophecy to mark the date. Newton, who was able to solve great scientific mysteries and mathematical equations, tried to go farther than any man could go, and tried to discover secrets that no man can know. William Whiston, a contemporary of Newton's, also made predictions.

Russell is line with these. Although Russell only had an 8th grade education, he nevertheless was curious, imaginative, and visionary. Russell thought that he had reason and mathematics on his side. But like an architect's plan, what can be imagined is not necesarilly real. Newton, Whiston, Russell, and all the others can be appreciated as works of imagination, like science fiction or fantasy literature, or like the paintings of WIlliam Blake, or as apocalyptic writings. But if they are taken as accurate predictions of the future, they will disappoint.

24

Universalism

by choosing life in

i was talking to a friend who believes that everyone will acieve eternal life eventually.

she used some scriptures that make sense to me.. 1 cor.

15:22 -for as in adam all die, so also in christ, all will be made alive.. rom.8 :38,39- basically states that nothing can seperate us from god's love.. it was kind of refreshing to hear her talk about everyone being important and worthwhile to god.

stev

Russell was not quite a universalist. His views are best expressed in the chapter on Ransom and Restitution in his book the Divine Plan of the Ages. He believed in a future probation for the world in the next age, but did not call this a second chance, because he thought that the world did not have a full opportunity to be saved in this life, especially those who never heard the gospel. He believed that the faith in the gospel was necessary for salvation, and that the ransom covered the whole human race, based on Rom. 5:12-20. He believed in universal salvation from death, and an opportunity to hear the gospel and to choose the right, but not universal salvation to eternal life. After being put on trial for eternal life, some using their freedom of will would choose to not be in harmony with God. Russell believed in annihilationism, and taught that these would not suffer eternal torment, but be destroyed forever.

One of the early divisions of the WatchTower has to do with question of universalism. J.H. Paton was an early associate of Russell, he wrote the book Day Dawn, which was distributed to the early Watchtower readers before the Millenial Dawn. Around 1881, Paton changed his views, and denied the substitionary atonement. Since Russell based restitution on the ransom, this was a crucial doctrine to Russell. Also, Paton adopted universalism, that all mankind would be saved, and also all mankind would eventually become spirit beings, and as I remember correctly, the divine nature. Russell did not believe this, but held that most of mankind would be on the earth as human beings. Russell and Paton parted company, Paton wrote his own books, and published the magazine 'The World's Hope". Paton's following eventually merged the Concordant Versionists, and they can be found on the internet. I have read several of Paton's books. He continued to hold much of the chronology from Barbour, and was interested in types and antitypes. He was more tolerant and liberal than Russell. For much of the 1880s, there was a paper war in the WatchTower, where Russell wrote against Paton's views without mentioning him directly.

The early works of Barbour, Russell, and Paton all are somewhat eccentric, filled with chronology, symbolism, types, idiosyncratic notions. IMO, they are best when they share larger concerns rather narrow individualistic views. Since Russell was able to gain the largest following, he got to address the public, and by necessity dealt with broader more general subjects.