Posts by SimonSays

16

Jesus not perfect and here's why.

by Crazyguy in

the bible is a inspired book of god and like and elder told me when i was young , there's no contradictions in the bible and all the prophecies have come true except the two or three that are supposed to come true in the future.

so with that said the messiah jesus christ himself must not be perfect and here's why.

in mark chapter 2 jesus is telling his followers that it's ok to pick wheat on the sabbath and mentions the story about david eating bread that was in the holy place ment only for the priests to use.

SimonSays

And Jews don't believe in Original Sin, so your last comments don't mean anything to me.

Interesting interpretation of scripture, however, flawed your view is. Fundamentally, Paul was speaking about the Gentiles having equal rights under Christ sacrifice (God’s Law) While I didn’t find it necessary to elaborate with Jewish Ideology, the Jewish nation lost its legitimacy before God? Thus, giving their inheritance to the non-Jew. It wasn’t necessary to touch on scholarly differences. 132 Second Jewish War led by bar Kokhba (through 135)

According to the statement, you rendered, all Christian religions would be false since they all hold the same basic concept for Christ. The WTS is no different unless it comes by personal opinions. Your findings are erred as well. So, If I were to affirm myself to a religion, it would NOT be one held by its partitive, that, the Torah is the only means to God, and its fulfillment, by rejecting the purpose and manner in which Jesus gave his life for as the “Son of God” which is implied in ancient text, regardless of the obscured revisionist views held by Jews. Word definitions have little logistical weight when it comes to honest understanding.

So, your last statement would have a lesser meaning to me. Perhaps, you need further your study in Christianity applied by Jesus. Since you can’t understand the concept of human, fallibility, "Rendered in the context of being an imperfect human" not the written word of God or its means of transmission to his chosen helpers for understanding and teaching, which Jews are included?

2Tim 1:9 (ESV) who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began.

Then, one such simple fallacy for Catholic (Christendom), Jews, Islam, and Orthodox faiths have? Is the shedding of innocent blood, and the acceptance for the killing of a human being in the name of their religious indoctrination, and perception of WAR? Not only do I consider that a huge fallacy and a crime against humanity? (Crime Against God) it’s also administered as a guiltless act upon humanity and affirmed by these cults. Something, that was enacted for the ancients (Israelites) and affirmed by Christ as God’s chosen proclaimer of his father's truth, not as a simple prophet as Judaism and Islam claim him to be by their view. An irrevocable fallacy implemented and justified by modern Jews and Muslims, and echoed by Christendom to hold this truth to be self-evident as the phrase goes, however gravely mistaken.

Matt 19:18 He said to him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness,

However, I leave it with this one last note, on your intellectual endeavor, you speak of doctrinal matters in a literal sense, a realistic minor mistake you began with. Yet, your perception is in the manner one organization applies bible truth in Gods written words, by masking your own fallacies in doctrinal matters and only considering the Book of Moses to be the only source while applying only what is needed with the rest of scripture in order to be perceived as an intellect.

As you stated: I would rather not hear an explanation that comes from a person that “can err in doctrinal matters.”

16

Jesus not perfect and here's why.

by Crazyguy in

the bible is a inspired book of god and like and elder told me when i was young , there's no contradictions in the bible and all the prophecies have come true except the two or three that are supposed to come true in the future.

so with that said the messiah jesus christ himself must not be perfect and here's why.

in mark chapter 2 jesus is telling his followers that it's ok to pick wheat on the sabbath and mentions the story about david eating bread that was in the holy place ment only for the priests to use.

SimonSays

David_Jay: And I would prefer you to not paste and copy from the Watchtower or any JW publication. Why not? The Watchtower Study edition of February 2017 states: “The Governing Body is neither inspired nor infallible. Therefore, it can err in doctrinal matters or in organizational direction.” (“Who Is Leading God’s People Today?” paragraph 12). I would rather not hear an explanation that comes from a group whose leaders “can err in doctrinal matters.”

Understandable, and I will respect your wish here. However, by the implied statement, it would nullify ANY Christian religious Doctrine. The debate would pose a serious question for the Apostles as Witnesses to Jesus Works and resurrection. The Apostles were imperfect (sinner by birth) human beings as we all are today. They too had their sets of infallibilities. The mechanics of that is, God used imperfect men to set the theme and course, his chosen people should take. Nothing supernatural about the actions of the past prophets that weren’t directly inspired by God himself. So, too was it set for Jesus. To appoint imperfect men (Sinner by Birth) to learn, then teach the word of God by example, of being obedient (true) to their commission, thus fulfilling their appointment. Hence the example of Abraham by Paul. Abraham didn’t have Jesus sacrifice to rely on, but had full “faith” in GOD, that, what God had promised, it would be kept. Therefore, Jesus sacrifice, enlightened humanity to have that same “faith” in God, through Christ, that what God has promised, it will be kept. Romans 4:1-8

There are fine examples in scripture of GOD keeping his promise. Certainly, NOT allowing an imperfect (Sinner) man to remove the sins of our forefathers, is a good example of our creator’s intelligence to require an “Adam of Man” Perfect Man (Sinless) The provincial “WORD” to be humanities only means of salvation. Therefore, if humanity wishes to be saved, it would need? The obedience and “Faith in God” and “Christ Sacrifice”. The latter has been completed. Luke 1:1-4

16

Jesus not perfect and here's why.

by Crazyguy in

the bible is a inspired book of god and like and elder told me when i was young , there's no contradictions in the bible and all the prophecies have come true except the two or three that are supposed to come true in the future.

so with that said the messiah jesus christ himself must not be perfect and here's why.

in mark chapter 2 jesus is telling his followers that it's ok to pick wheat on the sabbath and mentions the story about david eating bread that was in the holy place ment only for the priests to use.

SimonSays

David_jay: Why did Peter tell God he was still obeying kosher laws and had never broken them during the vision at Acts 10:12-14? Was Peter lying? Didn’t Jesus abolish kosher laws too along with the Sabbath? If so, why did Peter tell God he still ate kosher? Around 50 CE Paul writes that Peter was still eating kosher and it was an issue of contention at Galatians 2:11-13. Wouldn’t Peter have already understood that the Mosaic Law was abolished?

It would be simple to deduce that’s why Paul reproved Peter in the matter as he also confronted “Cephas” which is the context of Galatians 2. Perhaps Peters motive was not to cause strife between the Jews and the Gentiles in the church, or Perhaps Peter might not have fully understood there was no further distinction between the Jews and the Gentiles anymore that merited special consideration as inscribed by verse 14. But the WTS bases their assertions on the written words, not their own presumptions. There was still plenty to understand fully from Jesus parables, and God’s Holy Spirit was the one thing they could count on to receive exact knowledge. Even Barnabas became confused.

The point here would be, through Jesus sacrifice, the Gentiles were Given the same opportunity for salvation as the past chosen people (Israelites). Everyone had become equal in the eyes of God. Even though some ancient laws have come to duration by Jesus Sacrifice? There were still others that would continue, thou shall not kill, thou shall not steal, etc.

The perception between languages regardless if Christendom calls the meditator (Messiah) or the Jews referring to him as the “Son of Man” as a regular prophet, it becomes inconsequential sense it all boils down to what GOD instructs man through his holy spirit to do. If God suggested to humanity “this is my son, Whom I have chosen; Listen to him!” Luke 9:35 Then the implication is NOT as a regular prophet, but as the “Son of God”, then it would be correct to apply the Son of Man as well since the redemption would be for humanity, not just the Jews. So, the assertion the WTS erred in its understanding, therefore falls under one’s own interpretation as I cited earlier.

16

Jesus not perfect and here's why.

by Crazyguy in

the bible is a inspired book of god and like and elder told me when i was young , there's no contradictions in the bible and all the prophecies have come true except the two or three that are supposed to come true in the future.

so with that said the messiah jesus christ himself must not be perfect and here's why.

in mark chapter 2 jesus is telling his followers that it's ok to pick wheat on the sabbath and mentions the story about david eating bread that was in the holy place ment only for the priests to use.

SimonSays

The narrative at Mark 2:23-38 may be a polemic interpolation.

Perhaps you meant 23-28.

The best example of this was in the cited text on Mark 2:28 --- KJV Mark 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath. NAS Mark 2:28 "Consequently, the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."

Who was Jesus speaking to? The Pharisees. The people who knew the law, but used it to benefit themselves, by refusing to acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah, therefore NOT accepting the abolishment of certain commandments, thus not willing to relinquish their authority to a higher authority which was Jesus. It doesn’t take a Ph.D. to use common sense in biblical matters.

So, the fallacy is within one’s interpretation of scripture, NOT scripture itself. JW’s have no problem understanding the significance of the Sabbath. However, Christendom as a whole does, as they revere the Sabbath alongside the Jews. The best example of that was and is the “BLUE LAW” the Sunday law enacted in the USA by the Puritans as early as 1677 and ironically still in use today by unwittingly people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_laws_in_the_United_States

*** w09 6/1 pp. 22-23 Does God Change His Mind? ***

Why Was Sabbath-Keeping Temporary?

God instituted the observance of a weekly Sabbath after he delivered the Israelites from Egypt. He later made it part of their national Law. (Exodus 16:22-30; 20:8-10) The apostle Paul explained that Jesus offered himself as a sacrifice and “abolished... the Law of commandments consisting in decrees” and “blotted out the handwritten document.” (Ephesians 2:15; Colossians 2:14) What was “abolished” and “blotted out” included the Sabbath law, for the Bible goes on to say: “Therefore let no man judge you in eating and drinking or in respect of a festival or of an observance of the new moon or of a Sabbath.” (Colossians 2:16) Why did God give the Law, including the Sabbath, in the first place?

The apostle Paul wrote: “The Law has become our tutor leading to Christ.” Then he added: “Now that the faith has arrived, we are no longer under a tutor.” (Galatians 3:24, 25) Rather than changing his mind, God used the Sabbath as a temporary arrangement to teach people that they should regularly take time to meditate on spiritual matters. Although the Sabbath law was temporary, it pointed forward to the time when mankind would find lasting rest from physical and spiritual afflictions. —Hebrews 4:10; Revelation 21:1-4.

50

Elder asking for help

by untruth in

this is my first time posting on here so i’m not sure where to start.

i’m trying to keep it as short as possible since i could expand much more.

i’ve been in the process of waking up in the last year and a half.

SimonSays

I would take an interest in JW history. Many JW's collect the old books and photo's of Bro Russel or Rutherford. Find the one about Beth Sarim with Rutherford sitting outside his mansion waiting for the prophets of old to be resurrected to live with him in California. Give a little laugh and say "i wonder why Jehovah told him that".

If you ask any Bible Student anything to do with JW’s they most likely will agree with you. So Beth Sarim is a none starter. JW’s are already hip to the notion the house was built by Bible Student to help Rutherford with his health issues, that he contracted by being thrown in prison by Fascist Catholics that incited the government to charge the Bible Student leaders with sedition.

The erred perception that he built it for what he stated in his book “millions now living will never die” was the icing opposers needed to discredit his purpose of wanting to give “hope” to “millions now living” at that time for a better world, “if” the prospect of the ancients such as Moses, Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac would return (Resurrected) would, therefore, afford of “never” having to “die”, since the world would have gone into the millennial reign. For people just coming out of a world war, to them, it might have sounded good. Perhaps too much wishful thinking, but would have been nice for them.

But that would be something the Bible Students would have to answer. JW’s interest is after 1931.

Just curious, though. What would someone that dedicated half their life to honor their creator, then suddenly get tired? How would you see life, if you had signs of the 4 horsemen being released, let’s say by 2017? What then. I can see a Witness turn atheist as thousands have since they feel if the WTS was the ultimate truth, then…there is no other, since the rest of Christendom isn’t that zealous. What would the reaction be?

43

Oops, I did it again! Flag placed in the KH: Chile 2016

by ILoveTTATT2 in

jw
friends

my friends,.

what has become now a yearly tradition for me: getting the videos/photos of the flag in chile for their national holidays.. this is the 2016 version, i believe the clearest example yet:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b94j3lmqx_w&feature=youtu.be.

SimonSays

Oops! You sure did. Seems like the same video being circulated again. From when, 2009. My Catholic friend acknowledged it was a propaganda scheme from the government to discourage their citizens from becoming JW’s. They confiscated the hall for the purpose of raising the flag, as conquers do with their conquest. I wonder whose hand is on the Puppet if not the Vatican. Since they are making every effort to discourage Catholics from converting.

Same ploy in Mexico. Humorous never the less.

35

"The Word" includes the book Vindication!

by Atlantis in

can you send me the quote where the watchtower said that the word includes the book vindication?

thanks a bunch!.

.. the quote is in the 1932 watchtower, april 1, pg.101, par.

SimonSays

Jesus said that his disciples would be recognized by their love, how loving are any of the actions listed above? DD

Wouldn’t that also, disqualify you as a self-absorbed idealist? However, thank you for finally answering my question with “honesty”. When commenters resort to fact finding, without the proper foundation of knowledge? (Understanding), then undoubtedly, it loses credibility. Something that JWleaks, JWfacts, etc., have relied on to deceive the public for a decade or so. That in itself is flawed. We can continue to discuss one in others opinions to no fruitful end, as it would be a, futile gesture; when we can’t reach common ground on the concept of having to alter, rethink, and misrepresent actual “facts”.

(Geoffrey Jackson’s sworn testimony, wherein he states that claiming to be the sole channel of God is arrogant.) DD

Even with a trifle view, on misrepresentation. It definitely is, a sharp contrast to your own very words and understanding, Jackson’s claimed to be, don’t you think? Just another example of the foreseen.

Royal Commission Case 29:

42 RC-Stewart: Q. Do you, as members of the Governing Body, regard 43 yourselves as being appointed by Jehovah God or under the 44 capacity or authority of Jehovah God?

45 GB-Jackson: A. what we view ourselves, as fellow workers with our 46 brothers and sisters ‐ we have been given a responsibility 47 to guard or to be guardians of doctrine. So just the same 1 with elders, they are referred to as being appointed by 2 holy spirit, as you probably are aware, we believe that 3 means that when an elder is in harmony with what the Bible 4 says is required of an elder, then he is appointed by the 5 holy spirit. So the same is true with the Governing Body.

7 RC-Stewart: Q. So where it is said that the faithful and discreet 8 slave is made up of a small group of anointed brothers, are 9 we to understand the belief behind that being that you are 10 anointed by the holy spirit?

11 GB-Jackson: A. that is correct. But if I could just enlarge on that, 12 there are many anointed Jehovah's Witnesses who do not 13 serve on the Governing Body.

15 RC-Stewart: Q. and that would include all the elders around the 16 world; would that be right?

17 GB-Jackson: A. No, that is not correct. The anointing process that 18 we are referring to is referred to in the book of Romans, 19 chapter 8, where it speaks of a heavenly calling. So the

20 majority of Jehovah's Witnesses hope to live in a paradise 21 earth, whereas those who have been selected by means of 22 holy spirit have a hope to live in heaven ‐ to go to heaven 23 when they die, in other words.

25 RC-Stewart: Q. Mr. Jackson, is that the 144,000 that is referred to?

26 GB-Jackson: A. Ultimately, in the book of Revelation, chapter 14, it 27 refers to the total number being 144,000.

29 RC-Stewart: Q. Does the Governing Body, or do the members of the 30 Governing Body ‐ do you see yourselves as modern‐day 31 disciples, the modern‐day equivalent of Jesus's disciples?

32 GB-Jackson: A. We certainly hope to follow Jesus and be his 33 disciples.

35 RC-Stewart: Q. and do you see yourselves as Jehovah God's 36 spokespeople on earth?

37 GB-Jackson: A. That I think would seem to be quite presumptuous to 38 say that we are the only spokesperson that God is using. 39 The scriptures clearly show that someone can act in harmony 40 with God's spirit in giving comfort and help in the 41 congregations, but if I could just clarify a little, going 42 back to Matthew 24, clearly, Jesus said that in the last 43 days ‐ and Jehovah's Witnesses believe these are the last 44 days ‐ there would be a slave, a group of persons who would 45 have responsibility to care for the spiritual food. So in 46 that respect, we view ourselves as trying to fulfil that47 role.

14/08/2015 (155)

Quote from book of Joseph Farinaccio: Can All Views Be True?

Is it possible for Christians to claim that their belief system is true? Is the very claim itself an example of

Religious intolerance? Most public discussion of religion in contemporary culture is overshadowed by the notion that anyone may hold religious views as long as they do not say others are inferior. All belief systems make truth-claims. Truth-claims by their very nature imply that contrary assertions are false.

It is impossible for two genuinely opposite truth-claims to be simultaneously true. Although the law of contradiction may not be popular when applied to religious beliefs, it is still undeniable “that two

Antithetical propositions cannot both be true at the same time and in the same sense. X cannot be

Non-X. A thing cannot be and not be simultaneously. And nothing that is true can be self-contradictory or inconsistent with any other truth. All logic depends on this simple principle. Rational thought and meaningful discourse demand it.”

Thank you again, for allowing me to participate on this discussion. You can sum up and continue without further interruptions.

35

"The Word" includes the book Vindication!

by Atlantis in

can you send me the quote where the watchtower said that the word includes the book vindication?

thanks a bunch!.

.. the quote is in the 1932 watchtower, april 1, pg.101, par.

SimonSays

Uhhhh..... I said, "doctrinal revisions......Old Testament.." Then you mention the NT and Jesus as an indication that I am operating under some misunderstanding DD

I came to the discussion to understand, what definitive “proof” JWleaks had on knowing how he came to the specific conclusion the JW’s “DOESN'T” receive “GODS” Holy Spirit. I simply asked to show this monumental revelation, that’s all.

However, as yourself. It appears, this community lacks self-control, when someone asks a question. A question that has not been answered, but has been meet with various opinions and rhetoric. That’s’ unfortunate, since I keep explaining my intent of not wishing to argue, but; it falls on deaf ears.

DD. I never intended to debate your understanding of scripture. We all have our own fundamental beliefs. Your statement did pique my interest from the erred understanding you have about the OT, when I mentioned the Israelites and all the revisions (Adjustments) they had to go through. As you stated, your view is doctoral. Keep in mind that, the laws that governed Gods people was directed to the “Prophets” so in turn would be translated to the Kings. So any knew light would be given to the king of the land, verbally. You obscure you knowledge from direct commands to textbook. That is a flawed view. Also, when I mentioned Jesus, of course that would mean the NT, and my point was, the biggest revision that Jesus made was to change the “Mosaic Law”. OT. However, since my question will not be answered, you guys have a good day. You can make any comments to justify your understandings. Remember we all have the right to give opinions. Or at least, I’d like to think so.

DD> when you have a chance, read: Voices of Twelve Hebrew Prophets. Just in case you think I’m trying to distort bible truth, to sway the way of the WTS. This of course is not a WTS “publication”. I didn’t intend to preach or mark time. With me, that’s never the case, just knowledge.

8

INTRODUCTORY

Prophets. Whereas their messages were for the age in which they were delivered, they all breathed the spirit of eternal things. In the series of sermons now beginning we shall

Attempt to show how the messages delivered by these men in the long ago, have a direct bearing upon life at all times, and so necessarily upon our own times. The period of the history of Israel which was specifically and especially that of the prophet lasted for about

Five hundred years, from the beginning of the ninth to the beginning of the fourth centuries

B.C. After that there was no prophetic voice until that of John the

Baptist. The prophetic gift, of course, had occurred occasionally long before the period referred to. Peter in the message of the Lesson, said, “All the prophets”

From Samuel, thus going back far from the period to which we are now referring. During this period, however, these prophets were in the Divine economy, the authoritative voices, dictating

Terms to kings, upbraiding the failing people, and indicating what their true line of policy and of activity should be. These Hebrew prophets ever kept before the people the supreme fact that the Hebrew nation was a Theocracy, and that it was a nation created to live among the other nations, a revelation of what it means to have God as actual Ring. The nation was purely and simply a

Theocracy under Moses, and through the period of the Judges. Then there came the hour of the fall of the nation from Theocracy to monarchy. The “word” “revision” “new light” then, honestly applies. When understanding scripture.

35

"The Word" includes the book Vindication!

by Atlantis in

can you send me the quote where the watchtower said that the word includes the book vindication?

thanks a bunch!.

.. the quote is in the 1932 watchtower, april 1, pg.101, par.

SimonSays

Then you speak of "ancient times" and revisions?? What are you talking about? Name one, just one doctrinal revision in ancient times that was enacted by the nation of Israel. Name just one changed teaching in the OT that the Israelites could have stagnated on? There were none.DD

Now you’re just pandering, but expected. The lack of knowledge, is the day you misunderstood, the biggest revision in Christendom of them all, Jesus Christ. Perhaps you would like to revisit the OT to confirm this, with Jesus making changes, if not eliminating the” Mosaic Law” The difference, they saw it and it was passed by word of mouth and personal actions, back then.

Can we say the same in modern times? No! Humanity has fallen further from the truth and imperfection. However, you are correct, you cannot compare apples and oranges when it comes to bible truth. The same difference JW’s started calling themselves differently. If you speak to a modern day bible student, as I have, they will deny JW’s doctrine, so would it be so different to expect the same? Consider speaking to one someday, their all over the world. They also have District conventions, they also celebrate everything Christendom does. I have one as a friend, just like friends of any other religion. Perhaps if you set your anger aside, you’ll be able to see the flaws in your logic. Maybe someday you’ll learn how off the mark you are, but in the meantime, please continue your hostility, I don’t mind. Like I said, I didn’t come here to debate how we “ALL” lack knowledge when it comes to bible truth, But Gods asks us to try. So why don’t we. Why hasn’t Christendom taken the calling like the WTS? My sole interest was in the Claim to personally now God’s HS and the Direction God takes, in applying it. But as in everything Christendom, it boils down to “Faith”. Remember, Every Religion has chastised the WTS, So, you cannot criminalize the WTS, That logic, is also flawed. Starting with Russell, when they came out, calling him a Charlatan, but then, so do you guys, it’s no different. That’s why I don’t dismiss his core value.

Again, Thank You. DD

35

"The Word" includes the book Vindication!

by Atlantis in

can you send me the quote where the watchtower said that the word includes the book vindication?

thanks a bunch!.

.. the quote is in the 1932 watchtower, april 1, pg.101, par.

SimonSays

As far as revision of beliefs is concerned, when you aren't making shit up, you don't have to back-track. Many xian denominations never revise anything. Why? They have never claimed to have all the answers, or be the one true religion, or degraded every other faith like the WTBTS. DD

Well, this would make it, your strong personal opinion; wouldn’t it? But in all “honesty” a false premise since all religions have a strong belief, God’s Holy Spirit flows in them.

Example 1: http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/the-divinity-of-the-holy-spirit

Just this one. I don’t need emotions to cloud my judgement. The only religions that I know of, that don’t depend on God’s HS are, Scientology, Jainism, which is tied to atheism, and just a few more. Your own reasoning is flawed when you stipulate other religions don’t express their own true divinity. The WTS just makes it available to the public, since they have nothing to hide. Following this topic. I believe that is the point, I’m making about the WTS Publications. Nothing religiously new.

In ancient times, how many revisions did the Israelites have to go through, every time they sinned? Did God allow his chosen people to stagnate on it understanding? (Correction) Once again, let’s not let emotion carrying us off to just drastic opinions. What I was referring to, was substance on the claim of knowing definitively how, you presume to know about God’s HS, and where he directs his HS to whom. That is my simple interest.

If you can’t answer the question, then simply don’t. I’m didn’t come into your debate to argue. You guys enjoy your day. Thank you

I would much prefer that you tell us about your friendship with Ray Franz and why you believe he wanted to go back to the ways of Rutherford. Listener

Perhaps one day you will read about it. As for now, well it seems DD got temperamental, and that was not my objective. Best to You!!!!!!!!